Home heating advice

[jktruckin06]

I am buying a home that has an oil furnace that supposedly doesn't work. As far as I know, natural gas is not an option in the area. It is in Springdale, so I'm not sure if a propane tank is allowed.

I need some real world info from you guys on electric furnaces or oil? I could get a new oil furnace or go electric. Everything I read online says the operating costs are ridiculous for both. The house is just under 900 square feet, has almost all the windows updated to double pane. Has a full unfinished basement. I keep the thermostat in my apartment in the high 60s in the winter.

What do you all think?

[Rick93coupe]

I'd look into a pellet stove furnace that ties into the existing duct work, a friend of mine has one and swears by it. I run a buck stove all winter long as my house is all electric baseboard heat and that's outrageous to run. Buying / splitting / stacking / hauling wood all year BLOWS, lol. I will end up with a new heat pump or pellet stove before winter hits this year.

[cstreu1026]

A heat pump for a house that size shouldn't cost that much to run. It won't be as cheap as natural gas but inthinit would be better that heating oil for sure.

[JGavey]

I'm installing a heat pump tonight on a lady's furnace which is oil. Using a thermostat with an outdoor sensor that switches foe the heat pump to the oil furnace at a preset temp. If the oil furnace is good I would just add a heat pump to it. If you want to go heat pump with electric back up for your secondary heat you may have to upgrade your electric service to the house to have enough amps to run the electric backup heat. I have about a 1200 square foot house and run a heatpump with oil for back up last winter I used about 175 gallons of oil and my highest electric bill was about 180 my house still needs new doors and a couple more windows I have about half of the house renovated and the outside walls in half of it insulated

[redfirepearlgt]

Jon, Electric will be better to budget with. Oil prices will fluctuate like gasoline. Electric does not fluctuate as much and you can request even billing to help better budget.

We have an 840 sq ft home much like you are looking at. Granted we have NG for heat. With the furnace at 71-72 in the day and 68 after 10:30pm, we never had a combined gas/electric bill over $210 which was for January. We are not on even billing. All electric would likely run a bit more.

I just asked my mother who is on vaca with us about their oil heating days and she said that it seemed to fluctuate so much. They are on NG now.

Look into the heat pump setup and a heat supplement like a wood pellet stove. Propane would be very costly as well.

[mustang_gt88]

I agree my last house was 864 sq\ft and the heat pump worked just fine. You run a 95% furnace run the heat pump as your main and if allowed do back up propane.

[jktruckin06]

Thanks for the info so far. I'm guessing the heat pumps do most of the work down to the 30s and then your secondary system kicks in?

I looked into the pellet stoves and that seems pretty cool and pretty fairly priced.

[cstreu1026]

I don't know about heating with pellets but I know I love my pellet grill. It's amazing how much heat such a small amount of fuel puts out.

[redfirepearlgt]

A heat pump can carry well below 30 degrees. Its basically an A/C unit running in reverse. The technology has come a long way. There is also what they call a Hybrid system that if I understand correctly runs like your are thinking. It heat pumps down to about 30-35 degrees and then LP would assist in a higher stage when needed for lower temps to maintain heat load and setpoint. I'm replacing my current system with an 80% gas Forced Air in my case. I have looked into heat pumps but because I have NG option ands because our house is so small we are going to go with an 80% unit. The unit we have may be around 70% plus its 21 years old soooooooo probably more like 60% LOL!

[cstreu1026]

80% effciency?

[egbertnr]

Depending on how long you intend to keep house. ..geothermal is amazing. Huge tax benefits...and will pay for itself in a few years. Plus you get free hot water in the summer time.

Sent from my F150 using boost.

[jktruckin06]

I just got great news. Guess I was worrying for nothing. Duke energy has mains running in front of the house and down the side street (it's a corner lot). The guy I spoke with said Duke will run up to 250 feet to your house and install a meter for free! Granted I'll be buying their shit forever, but it solves my problem.

[egbertnr]

Problem solved. ..until next winters heating bill. ...

Sent from my F150 using boost.

[Rick93coupe]

Depending on how long you intend to keep house. ..geothermal is amazing. Huge tax benefits...and will pay for itself in a few years. Plus you get free hot water in the summer time.

Sent from my F150 using boost.

I've often wondered what a system costs, I'm in a great place for geothermal.

[egbertnr]

I did some looking..serious looking in fact. Depending on the size. I was looking at a 3 ton unit..which means you need 3 loops in the ground 150 feet deep. The indoor unit was going to run in the 13k range and the loops would have been 6 to 7 thousand total with all excavation and plumbed to the house. I was actually going to be part of a demo..my previous employer built the drills to to do the loop holes. Things got delayed too much and I eventually went with a heat pump traditional unit. But wish I would have waited. From what I seen you are generally looking at about 18 to 20 thousand total for a 3 ton unit. Obviously that goes up with the larger units. Drilling is expensive. But again your heating and cooling costs are so much less and more even thru the year. Just a big pill to swallow up front. I believe you could get like 30 percent back on taxes to from total spent. That's how it was a year or so ago anyway.

Sent from my F150 using boost.

[Evolved]

When my heat pump crapped out this last winter I found this place in Centerville http://shop.thefurnaceoutlet.com/ . They have the best prices I could find and you can pick the units up yourself. I ended up getting a new compressor installed free through a home warranty company after a long fight, I proved my case and somehow won against them of the reason for my unit failing.
My house is 2990 sq. ft. and my heat pump works great, but most people do not like a heat pump because the out coming air is not as hot as a NG, propane or electic furnace.

[Jeff88coupe]

I love having natural gas in our house...not just for the furnace..but hot water heater and kitchen range as well.

[Rick93coupe]

When my heat pump crapped out this last winter I found this place in Centerville http://shop.thefurnaceoutlet.com/ . They have the best prices I could find and you can pick the units up yourself. I ended up getting a new compressor installed free through a home warranty company after a long fight, I proved my case and somehow won against them of the reason for my unit failing.
My house is 2990 sq. ft. and my heat pump works great, but most people do not like a heat pump because the out coming air is not as hot as a NG, propane or electic furnace.

What size unit did you end up needing for your sq ft? The feel of the air coming out of the vents is misleading, by the feel of it, you wonder how it's possible to warm a house. I think a properly sized H/P would work well in my place with the baseboard heat and or buckstove as needed.

[Mista Bone]

Natural gas....when the power goes out you can still cook and take a hot shower.....You can also get some heat by using the oven, but nothing more than you would normally baking.

Cookies by candle light, LOL!

[redfirepearlgt]

80% effciency?

That's what I said. 80% efficiency. Smaller homes will not likely see the return on the increased cost of installing a high efficiency unit.

http://i1266.photobucket.com/albums/jj528/redfirepearlgt/conspiracy.jpg (http://s1266.photobucket.com/user/redfirepearlgt/media/conspiracy.jpg.html)

[cstreu1026]

Natural gas....when the power goes out you can still cook and take a hot shower.....You can also get some heat by using the oven, but nothing more than you would normally baking.

Cookies by candle light, LOL!

...and if you have a naturual powered backup generator you'll probably never be without power. That's one of things on the wishlist for a new house.


That's what I said. 80% efficiency. Smaller homes will not likely see the return on the increased cost of installing a high efficiency unit.


I wasn't sure if you were referring to some other furnace spec but with the cost difference between an 80% and 95% efficient unit being as little as $150 for comparable models it really wouldn't take that long to recover the extra money spent but hey its your money burn it if you want.

[fastone]

All newer hot water heaters shut off when the power goes out. If the power vent, which all newer hot water heaters must have, must start prior to the hot water heater firing up. Just FYI


Natural gas....when the power goes out you can still cook and take a hot shower.....You can also get some heat by using the oven, but nothing more than you would normally baking.

Cookies by candle light, LOL!

- - - Updated - - -

I built a new house in the summer of 2012. 2600 sq foot finished with a heated/cooled basement of 1600 sq ft. I have a 4 ton unit with 5 wells 175ft deep and spent 25,000. Got 30% back on my taxes, ($7,500) NOT A CREDIT, it was a straight refund from the government. Where I'm at I would have to do propane and it would have been 17,500 for that system, so it was a wash. Plus Geo heats your hot water heater year round not just in the summer time. Highest bill this winter with temp set at 72 degrees, $212! Summer time temp set at 68 degrees, highest so far $89. So geo is the way to go as long as it is a good company installing it. Always go with a bigger unit and more wells than they figure.



I've often wondered what a system costs, I'm in a great place for geothermal.

[pegasus]

Look in to baceboard heat using Honeywell therostats

[04 Venom]

A heat pump for a house that size shouldn't cost that much to run. It won't be as cheap as natural gas but inthinit would be better that heating oil for sure.

I agree.

[Evolved]

What size unit did you end up needing for your sq ft? The feel of the air coming out of the vents is misleading, by the feel of it, you wonder how it's possible to warm a house. I think a properly sized H/P would work well in my place with the baseboard heat and or buckstove as needed.

My unit is a 2.5 ton, I wanted to step it up to a 3 ton unit but I couldn't get them to replace it all. I figure when this one craps out I will go with a bigger unit.

[redfirepearlgt]

I wasn't sure if you were referring to some other furnace spec but with the cost difference between an 80% and 95% efficient unit being as little as $150 for comparable models it really wouldn't take that long to recover the extra money spent but hey its your money burn it if you want.

No one quoting me since I began my search in March has shown me a mere $150 cost difference in a complete system. Four quotes and the difference is has been no less than $500 difference in systems installed. That quote was from an SBZ hookup that can no longer do it because he left that business and is now working for a company that has a no-compete clause. So best deal now is $700 difference in cost and a higher overall price.

Additionally high efficiency units generate much more condensate and because of this they tend not to last as long as a conventional 80% unit and require additional maintenance. Installation to convert is also higher being high efficiency units do not use a standard chimney setup. Plus they need condensate pumps in many cases due to lack of floor drains. Average life of an HE unit is 10-12 years. Higher end series non-contractor units will last estimated 15 or so but again more money overall. Mine is currently 21 years old and works, but is time to replace.

Jon, hope the information you are getting helps. If you need to discuss what I have received in quotes feel free to call me. If you don't have my number these days PM me for it.

[Black Horse]

Depending on how long you intend to keep house. ..geothermal is amazing. Huge tax benefits...and will pay for itself in a few years. Plus you get free hot water in the summer time.


Geothermal is indeed amazing (and quite a simple principal). If you can go with horizontal loops under ground or at the bottom of a pond your system will cost much less. If you go with vertical wells (even though they are a bit more efficient) they are a lot more costly. I'm expecting my summer cooling costs to be almost nothing and my winter heating to have a 65% savings. There also is currently a decent tax deduction for going with Geothermal.

I don't see how you consider you are getting free hot water in the summer? The Geothermal loops basically run at around 58 degrees - you are not running a compressor to exchange any heat in the summer.

If anyone needs a contact for a Geothermal install I can pass along the guys that did mine - class act!

[cobrajoe]

What's the problem with the oil furnace?

[Rick93coupe]

Geothermal is indeed amazing (and quite a simple principal). If you can go with horizontal loops under ground or at the bottom of a pond your system will cost much less. If you go with vertical wells (even though they are a bit more efficient) they are a lot more costly. I'm expecting my summer cooling costs to be almost nothing and my winter heating to have a 65% savings. There also is currently a decent tax deduction for going with Geothermal.

I don't see how you consider you are getting free hot water in the summer? The Geothermal loops basically run at around 58 degrees - you are not running a compressor to exchange any heat in the summer.

If anyone needs a contact for a Geothermal install I can pass along the guys that did mine - class act!

Was your system in the 25K range also?

[Mista Bone]

What's the problem with the oil furnace?

I'll bet a cracked chamber....if it wasn't for that a burner conversion to natural gas is easy.

[cobrajoe]

I'll bet a cracked chamber....if it wasn't for that a burner conversion to natural gas is easy.

Those heat exchangers are pretty stout, but if they overfired a lot anything is possible.

[fastone]

Here is the process that a true geo unit uses to heat your hot water heater year round. Check this website out,
http://www.geojerry.com/desuperheater.html



Geothermal is indeed amazing (and quite a simple principal). If you can go with horizontal loops under ground or at the bottom of a pond your system will cost much less. If you go with vertical wells (even though they are a bit more efficient) they are a lot more costly. I'm expecting my summer cooling costs to be almost nothing and my winter heating to have a 65% savings. There also is currently a decent tax deduction for going with Geothermal.

I don't see how you consider you are getting free hot water in the summer? The Geothermal loops basically run at around 58 degrees - you are not running a compressor to exchange any heat in the summer.

If anyone needs a contact for a Geothermal install I can pass along the guys that did mine - class act!

[Black Horse]

Was your system in the 25K range also?

Mine was much less expensive as I could go horizontal loops and a propane dual-fuel furnace. I put in a 5 ton unit, my square footage is nominal but my cubic footage is a bit more than most.

- - - Updated - - -


Here is the process that a true geo unit uses to heat your hot water heater year round. Check this website out,
http://www.geojerry.com/desuperheater.html

Good information, but the "hot" water you are referring to is just the nominal heating of the cold water in the bottom of your tank. If you look at nominal heat exchange rate, you might be able to raise the temperature of 58 degree incoming water to 65 degrees. While your water heater will be more efficient (use less power) the Geothermal is giving you less than I would consider "hot" water. I did not install this extra process in my home for the simple fact that the additional costs took much longer to recover in the water heating process. I invested my money into a lifetime water heater.