Big miss - loss of power

[redfirepearlgt]

Started having an engine issue on the way home tonight from Fillmores.

Current setup - 4.6L 3V engine, Saleen Supercharger (9psi boost, custom grind Detroit rocker cams by Brenspeed, tuned by same.) Been running fine since install of cams back in March. Over 1000 miles on car. Exhaust is stock other than the axle back mufflers. Stock h pipecats, and exhaust manifiolds. Problem just began this evening.

Noticed that the car was missing in 5th gear. Shifted up to fourth gear and it seemed a little better, back into fifth and big time laboring and clear defined missing. By the time we reached the house it was struggling to stay running. Pulled in the driveway. popped the hood and first inspected to see if any spark plugs had blown out. aLL in tact. (car still running). seemed very, very hot and had a unusally hot smell coming from the back of the engine up the fire wall. NOt an electrical hot smell. More of an over hot metal smell. Engine water temp 180-190 all the way home. Vacuum at idle 7-9 inches. Fuel pressre @ 35-40 psi at idle.

Got home shut car off and restarted and car idled fine. throttle to 2k,3k,4k,5k, holding steady and let off and car would continue to run fine. Floor throttle and let off (up to 6K) and engine begins missing again and stays missing, until car is shut off and restarted. NO CELS.

No plugs are blown, vacuum is 7-9 inches at idle. Only seems to effect the car when rev'd and goes into a boost mode. Could this be cats melting and clogging up causing a reduced flow and causes the engine to generate a wierd retar in timing to protect the engine? The engine temp is staying 180-195 w/o A/C on. Doesn't seem to be any mechanical knocking of any nature until the engine is revd hard and starts missing, but that apperas to only be do to the jerking of the engine whiel missing. Shut the car off and restart and the idle comes back and the car runs smoothly until a very hard throttl up is generated while sitting still . Too late to take for a road test.

Any input would be appreciated. I think this may well be Cats opr a Cam sensor causing the problem. However I would think the cam sensor would throw a Diganostic of some nature. HELP PLEASE!!!

Thanks. Chad

[redfirepearlgt]

Forgot to mention - PLugs are one step colder one piece Brisk plugs. Kennebell Boostapump has also been added to compensate for additional fuel demand on setup. 39# injectors. Thanks again guys.

[Blackout]

sounds like a vacuum leak. vacuum should always be around 15 or better. my 2002 always holds a vacuum of 20 psi @ idle

[redfirepearlgt]

sounds like a vacuum leak. vacuum should always be around 15 or better. my 2002 always holds a vacuum of 20 psi @ idle
Car has made 10-12" (cold to warm idle) vacuum before cams were installed, according to vac/boost gauge for over a year. With new cams in at idle car runs 7-9 inches vacuum at idle which is within spec according to installer. 7" cold, 9" once warmed up. Will pull vacuum test on car later thsi week to be sure, thanks.

[bobtsgt]

if the motor sensors are seeing temps over the allowed value they tuned your car to then the computer will pull timing which may be a cause. Need to datalog your information and see where everything sits when this problem happens.

[Timido]

Vacuum leak and EgR problems feel like a miss. I don't think the 3v has egr. Could be a glitch in the variable cam timing. Best bet would be to find a real diagnostic computor that can do real time data log and try to recreate the problem. It does not sound like a base engine problem but it would help to rule it out if you did a cylinder leak down test and compression test.

[05yellowgt]

Sounds just like the VCT acting up. I'm assuming that the cam timing wasn't locked out with the addition of the Detroit Rocker Cams? Also, the vacuum seems low before you installed the cams. My stock engine made 18-20 inches of vacuum and the new motor makes between 20-22 at idle. I still have stock cams but the vacuum seems low to me even for having cams.

[redfirepearlgt]

Started the car again tonight after getting home. After about 15 minutes of warmup the hot metallic smell is back. It is on the driveer's side. Noticable under the hood on driver side and in drivers side floor board. Exhaust flow on driver side at the tail pipe feels lower than on passenger side. Car finally threw up a CEL and is now going into a miss condition at 2500 RPM steady throttle. Shut car off and restart and car runs smoother but with a lighter miss now. CEL stays lighted. thrttle to 2500 and it starts missing badly again. For fun I started disconecting injectors on the drivers bank. Going to turn this one over to those that are better than me on this.

As for the Vacuum - I am reading the vacuum off of a sportman series vacuum/boost gauge which may not be accurate, but thats not to say that a vacuum leak is not existant on the car, though it has appeared to run fine up until last evening. Only had the vacuum/boost gauge for about a year and it never read much lower than 13" Hg at idle even before the cams were installed.

So back to the drawing board, thanks for the input but getting way above my head. Looks like a trailer trip to North Webster, IN. Thankfully have a friend with a an auto trailor and truck that will help me get it up there. May just strip it back to stock, sell the parts, trade the car in and get a convertible to putt around in. Time to start slowing down at my age anyway I expect.

[graysonracin]

na never too old to go fast, try and pull the o2 sensors out of it and see if it runs better, that will open the exhaust some if it is causing an issue by being clogged up. Worth a try. Dont run it too long like this, it gets things hot fast, wires etc. Good luck

[redfirepearlgt]

Got off the horn with the folks at B-speed and they have seen this happen before with F/I applications on 3V setups. They think the cats are melting internally and creating an obstruction that is causing excessive backpressure which is causing he car to dump timing under a load due to some detonation and misfire being caused by the exhaust gasses not escaping the tailpipes. They have found this to happen on quite a few F/I S197 cars that have kept the factory midpipe. In fact they had one of the new Supersnakes (think that is what they call it, made 680 RWHP) in and the guy had to go OR pipe because his exhaust had mleted to high dollar all metal cats that are commonly used on performance setups. So will replace the midpipe with an offroad Pypes X-pipe that Cobraman302 has listed on site if it is still available. Thanks Rick! Sure would be nice to have this resolved for a C-note and a few hours laying on my back under he car this weekend. I refuse to weiner out and give up on this this quickly. If the problem still exists then I will give in and take it to the pro's. Thansk again all for the input. Have a nice week.

[redfirepearlgt]

na never too old to go fast, try and pull the o2 sensors out of it and see if it runs better, that will open the exhaust some if it is causing an issue by being clogged up. Worth a try. Dont run it too long like this, it gets things hot fast, wires etc. Good luck

Very true. Thanks for the heads up. I've only played wit hit allowign it to get up to oeprating temp in the drive for a few minues at a time. Never thought ot pull the O2 sensors in the cats out. Good call. While up under it tonight I inspected all of hte wiring to the tranny, starter, O2 sensors and so forth. Nothign appears melted or chaffed. As well in the engine compartment and under the dash in the car all wiring looks good.

Your right, not going to give up quite yet. Just venting some frustration. Appreciate the feedback. :bigthumb

[sean]

Hope so too. Any time you can fix something for a c note lying on your back..... its a good day.

[redfirepearlgt]

Well Sir, after last nights little TS attempt the cart generated a P0340 Cam Sensor CIR ER1 S1 that I downloaded on the SCT tuner. THe good old Ford manual (tech manual specifc to 2005 Ford Mustang from Ford) does not recognize that code for this problem therefore SCT must be using their own cross reference to codes found in the tech manual. Accordingl to sources this may/may not be the issue, but will be pulling and inspecting the cam sensors on the car tomorrow evening, then pulling the valve covers to see if maybe a phaser has started coming apart. Meanwhile still suspiscion the cats as well (sources state the F/I setups have desttroyed these cats in as little as 5K miles.) Guess I am saving gas and miles on the car. THANKFULLY BRENSPEED HAS ASSURED ME THAT SHOULD THE TROUBLESHOOTING I AM DOING WIT HTHEIR DIRECTION NOT PROVE ANYTHING THEY WILL GO TO WORK ON IT AND WILL HONOR THEIR WARRANTY ON THE WORK DONE AQND WORK WITH ME TO GET THE PROBLEM RESOLVED AT A REASONABLE PRICE.

Meanwhile awaiting on the word back on availability of the O/R x-pipe that is listed. Once I have that I can at least rule it out or it is the big fix.

Sure am getting baptism by fire. Hey guys at least I'm giving this techno-engine hell at trying. Hopefully some good learning will come of it that can be shared here. Thanks for the feedback again.

Chad

[redfirepearlgt]

Finally get the tools to get the compression test done.

Final results - #1=148, #2=140, #3=145, #4=135/139, #5=133/143, #6=140, #7=145, #8=144. These numbers fall rightin the middle of the comression chart in the 2005 Ford Tech manual if I am reading it right. EIther way, the manual states that the coression should read with 75% of the highest cylinder compression sample andI am inside of 10% difference across the board. Not bad I would say on a cold engine.

Of course this is not a Snap-on compression gauge so there may have been a little blow by but the numbers are right in the middle of the compression chart and with 11% range high to low.

Never got the mid pipe replaced. Tried to do it in the driveway but the mid pipe was installed with an impact wrench which ticks me off a bit. Ford spec is 33 ft/lb on the bolts. Soaked them for 2 hours in PB blaster and the upper would not release. Threads are clean as well. So I may take hte car to a local place and have them bust the bolts loose for me.

I have had the valve covers off and the cams, timing chain, cam sensors, rockers, springs, journals, and soforth all look to be fine. Oil is getting to the heads, and the timing chain tensioners appear to be working fine. The cam phasers are in tact as well so it appears. Water pump seems to be workign as well. I can feel pressure surging through the return hose after the car warms up to 180.

Unfortunately things are starting to point at the Super Charger. WIth a second pair of ears and some help, I have isolated the clatter I am hearing to the top of the engine. At least the SC is still under warranty or should be and the Speed shop I use is really being helpful and working with me and not blowing me off. This has been a great learning experience though the car has been down for 3 weeks and may end up costing some denero to get resolved but learning experiences often times come at a price. Thansk for the feed back and the support. Have a great week folks. Miss seeing everybody.

[redfirepearlgt]

Thankfully not the super charger. The diagnosis is Cam phaser (s). Good call Timido, and 05yellowGT!! Cam phasers are an intregral part of the VCT system on the 3V, (and no it does not have an EGR valve like the 2V mod 4.6L). I inspected these initially but had no means of knowing the difference between good and bad (unless I saw obvious catastrophic failure) due to my lack of experience. The noise they make when they start to go bad is what I was hearing according to the folks this morning in North Webster, IN when they heard the noise. Made it sound like the noise was coming rom the SC. Having LT's and OR X pipe installed while there as well and then retuned again with boost set back at 7 psi using 3.6" pulley. Can always put hte 3.4" back on and load tune for a dyno day event. :)

It is so very nice to work with a group that listens to your concerns and works with you after the sale and service work. What a great group of guys. Thank you Brenspeed again.

Also thanks again big time to Finsh Line Performance in Milford for allowing me to borrow a 16mm thread compression gauge adapter hose to perform my compression testing with. Thank you Brandon!!!!

[sean]

Great news. I was wondering how all this was going

[Stang88]

And here I thought it was maybe a piece of left over larosas pizza caught up in the motor from the evening before...lol!

[redfirepearlgt]

And here I thought it was maybe a piece of left over larosas pizza caught up in the motor from the evening before...lol!

Well funny you should say that. I was just at Brenspeed and found out that what I heard and what they said were two different things. The noise is referred to as cam phaser knock. They believe there is an oil restriction somewhere in the VCT system or the oil pump may be going bad and is creating enough oil pressure to protect the engine but not enough to satisfy the VCT system.

The Variable cam timing (VCT) is controlled via oil pressure. It is actually quite interesting the way it works. I got the basics. So on a basic level and to my peabrain level of understanding, oil pressure is provided from the back side of the head. It enters at teh rear of the cam where the cam is mounted and travels through a port drilled down the center of the cam shaft (yes it is drilled out the entire length). The cam phaser gear assembly is attached to the front of the camshaft with a special bolt that is also ported out and then cross drilled through the shoulder near the head of the bolt perpendicular to the bolt length. This bolt holds the gear onto the camshaft threading into the bore that runs to length of the camshaft of which the oil passes through. Oil pressur enters the cam phaser gear assembly via the specially ported bolt via an electrically controlled solenoid controls the amount of oil pressure being presented to the cam phaser gear assembly. As the pressure in the phaser gear changes so does the tab positions on the cam phaser gear that is able to move independent (fixed rotational movement) of the cam phaser timing gear on the assembly. The tabs pass across the face of the cam sensor mounted on the lower front portion of the head which feeds cam position timing data to the PCM. The position of the tabs relative to the position of the camshaft causes a change in timing advance/retard as needed during normal engine operation. Hope that s right guys/gals. SOOOOOOOOOOOO either something has made its way into the path that supplies/controls oil flow to the cam phaser, or the oil pump is beginning to go bad. Thankfully the main source of lubrication for the cam shaft itself comes through the lash adjusters (these replace the pushrods and lifters on an OHC engine) via a different route to lubricate the roller rockers, cam lobes and soforth as well as the cam journal bearings. Oil level is good, penzoil synthetic is my choice of oil. A purolator gold series filter is in place, and ther eis only 1200-1500 miles on the oil change.

Will know more once they get it in and begin doing oil pressure testing and further analysis.

[redfirepearlgt]

Final resolve - LH Cam phaser failing. Replacing both to be sure. since 05,06 mustang did have some issues with cam phasers but nothing like the issue found on the F150 5.4L. Oil pressure has been verified good and well above the minimum 22psi with oil pressure gauge placed in the path.

Upgrade while there - Going through with LT's/off road H pipe and a final tune check on the dyno. Hoping to see 490RWHP. Life is getting better again. :)