What would it take to get fox into the 10's?

[RacerX]

I know you guys know what it takes to make a fox body go fast. I'd like to tap into that knowledge and get some opinions. I have the car, a '90 LX 5spd. hatch. It's a nice daily driver, lots of steeda handling stuff, frame connectors, sway bars, solid rear control arms etc. The engine is stock.

Here's the only limits, it needs to stay streetable, keep A/C, and keep rear suspension as in not tubbed. I'm open to anything else. Would a 347 do it? Not a fan of NOS or turbo but a blower would be fine. I would like to stay fuel injection if possible. Roll cage a must I assume...

I have a buddy with a whatever the last year trans-am was and I want to show him what a Ford can do.

Brainstorm a bit and spend my money!

Thanks for all input! Dave

[NXcoupe]

Lose the steeda lowering springs and some of the suspension stuff, like front sway bar, 347 in a boss block or a dart block, D1SC procharger with 12 lbs of boost, and you are in the 10 sec zone with the proper suspension and lightening. YOu can keep it a 5 spd, but need to upgrade to a tremec TKO or minimum of a Gforce upgraded T5. Have to upgrade the rear axle as well with some moser stuff and a 3.73 gear.

[Timido]

Or go more cubic inches big Windsor and run into the 10s with a stroked 351 block. Skip the cost of the blower and dart block. There are many ways to get to your goals. I can say that a NA big motor with an automatic will be less headache in the long run

[Walter]

People run 10's with a 331/347 na all the time.

[bronzeLX]

People run 10's with a 331/347 na all the time.Couple of months ago there was a 331 runnin 10.40's for 3800 dollars for sell on here. But that car was set up for it. Like NXcoupe said you will have to upgrade the trans and rear for that kinda power.

[Yellowstang]

you can get there with a well built 302 and spray it and a good converter

[Walter]

Couple of months ago there was a 331 runnin 10.40's for 3800 dollars for sell on here. But that car was set up for it.

Not sure what you are trying to say here.




Like NXcoupe said you will have to upgrade the trans and rear for that kinda power.

Thats a given.

[TurboNG]

Diet Diet Diet, lose all the weight out of the car you can, stock 5.0s can run in the mid 12s with no Eng mods, if you do a 331/347 do it right and do a high rev motor something like 7-8k RPM with a 410 for the street.

[Timido]

The big windsor can do it all day long on pump gas. Jeff had a 302 with ported gt40ps and a decent intake with a good shot of nitrous it ran 10.99 Like I said there are many ways to do this just depends on your goals and how you want to roll

[Rick93coupe]

I second the stroked windsor route, there's a lot to be said about the simplicity.

[JASON408]

my first 408 would have been fine for the needs you want 408 10 to 1 stock block, out of the box vic jr heads n-111 hdy roller, fuel injected in went 10.70s na on pump gas and ran 9.80s on spray . still made enough vac for power brakes could have ran ac think i had less than 6 grand intake to oil pan in it

[Kwik92GT]

Stroked Windsor would get my vote here also. Easy to build/maintain and will run 10s all day long.

[JIMS SVT]

Like NXcoupe said you will have to upgrade the trans and rear for that kinda power.

And atleast a 6pt roll bar after 11.49

[Jeff88coupe]

I've gotten both a stock 302/nitrous and a n/a 347 combo in the 10's at 3200# in my coupe. If you want to keep it very streetable and n/a....stroked windsor with a mild cam and decent heads would be my vote. Also take into account your going to be upgrading your intake/headers with either a 302 or 351 based combo. It really isn't anymore costly to build a stock block stroked windsor vs. a 302 combo...especially if you would need to buy a race 302 block.

[bbfstanger]

stk 5.0 shortblock with twisted wedge heads tfs cam stg2 and rpm,rpm2,systemax intake.
all the power adders spray,turbo or blower can get you in tens. with the above combo.
car needs to be set up accordingly.
ran the exact combo with a 200 shot 10.70's in a 91gt 2875# without me in it a/c and with an aod. 4.30 gear 3600 stall.
250hit it went 10.57@127.
there are many heads and cams thatll do it.
hard to beat a windsor for doin it all motor ,likes been said.

[bronzeLX]

Not sure what you are trying to say here.I'm saying that was a cheap motor thats proven itself versus a new engine and also if you are going to go that fast you need a fuel system, as well as other parts, rear end a trans to support it. Gonna be some more money. How hard was that?





Thats a given.Maybe he didnt consider the other stuff Walter:lol:

[NXcoupe]

And atleast a 6pt roll bar after 11.49

Shameless plug here, where could he get a cage done Jim? lol!

[Steves LX]

I ran a stock block 302 with afr185 heads, TFS track heat, TFS stage 2 cam with 3.73 gears and a T5 tranny for 2 years on a 200 shot and was running 10.70's @ 128MPH. The tranny is now in the wifes coupe and the motor is in another car still running with no problems.

[chad393na]

Stroked windsor gets my vote also. Doesn't get simpler and you can have great driveability.

[700hp04mystic]

windsor for shure would be the simple way na.

[RacerX]

I think I'm sold on the 408 n/a, sounds like it would do the job. Is there a better block to start with? Internals? Heads? Intake? I have a nice Rousch 4150HP 850 cfm w/airbleeds that may be a good fit, I assume with a 408 we're talking carbs and not FI?

My thought would be find a running donar engine/car/truck to get all the accessorie drives and such. Does a 351W take a differant bellhousing for a manual than a 302?

Thanks for all the input!



DR

[Timido]

Carb or Efi your choice. Efi better day to day drivability with more cost and complexity. Bell housings are the same. I would use a blow proof. Bellhousing if it is a manual. 1969-70 blocks are preferred. If you are just planning a 10sec NA motor use what ever 351 block you can find cheap spend the money on heads and intake. Vic Jr or afr205 heads with a Vic Jr intake with that 850 Carb should work good

[cagedhatch]

stroke it and spray it

[RIXXX93GT]

Stroked fairly mild windsor with a 150 shot....should be no problem at all.

[5.0calypso93lx]

I'm pretty much with everyone else on the stroked windsor. Good power for "cheap" and don't have to spin them forever to those numbers, which in turn should be easy on parts. Most of the parts you would change building on a 302, you would need to convert to a windsor anyway.

If you're on a budget, I'd probably do a 71-74 blocked 351 block, decent 408 kit, probably some vic jr's and a custom cam.

[RacerX]

Thanks for all the input. If I do a 408 will my 302 front cover and waterpump/sepentine belt/AC/PWR steering brackets bolt up to a 351W block?

If so that would be a big help. Little things like that can drive you crazy finding all the right pieces sometimes.

I did some searching and there are several outfits doing 408/418/427 kits, Wheeler was one I saw, Patriot maybe? I also saw a place in Piqua called CAM. Any builders in the Cincinnati area have experience in one of these?

I found a build in Car Craft with all the part #'s and such that made 525hp I think.



DR

[Timido]

Front cover and water pump you can reuse for sure. 525 sounds like a reasonable number for a mild pump gas 408. My old car made 600 at the flywheel pump gas it ran good.

[Rick93coupe]

If I remember right you'll need to find an accessory bracket off of a 351 if you want to keep your AC, most people yank that stuff off though. It's been a long time but as I remember it, the bracket bolts to the waterpump and up to the head and since the deck height is 1" taller on the 351 your 302 bracket wont fit. Maybe someone else can chime in on that. There's some good reading on the corral about swapping a windsor into your car.

I suggest you start by reading this thread, there's lots of good info in it.
http://forums.corral.net/forums/5-0-5-8-engine-tech/71931-info-people-building-351w-351w-strokers.html

[Rick93coupe]

Also, if you do it. Do some research on the trick flow "as cast" 190 cc heads. They were cast after a fully CNC ported head and although they don't flow as well as a fully ported head, they're making great power "as cast".

[Sharad]

This thread is funny.

But yeah, stroked windsor is nice.

Or just H/C/I on your stock shortblock and add a blower.

And don't forget this:

http://www.uprproducts.com/mustang-chrome-moly-rear-suspension-kit.html :D

[RacerX]

Rick,
I read that thread untill I went a little cross eyed, lots of good info for sure.

I know most you guys ditch the A/C but I want to drive on the street too and I know my wife wants to be cool, and for that matter I do too. So I really want to keep the air.

If I want to keep my current compressor I assume I will need the brackets from about the same year 351, mine a '90 and has that kinda small compressor. Looking like finding a complete car/truck with a 351 is going to be a good idea.

Cost wise it looks like the 408 may be cheaper than turning my 302 into a 347 w/FI? What do you guys think? Could a good 347 w/FI and no power adders make close to 500hp like a carbed 408? My buddy is running low 11's with a 400+ inch LS1 auto. that he drives everyday so thats my goal.


Thanks again, Dave

[Rich]

This is the bracket you will need with the 351w and AC

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/FMS-M-8511-B351/

[Rick93coupe]

Rick,
I read that thread untill I went a little cross eyed, lots of good info for sure.

I know most you guys ditch the A/C but I want to drive on the street too and I know my wife wants to be cool, and for that matter I do too. So I really want to keep the air.

If I want to keep my current compressor I assume I will need the brackets from about the same year 351, mine a '90 and has that kinda small compressor. Looking like finding a complete car/truck with a 351 is going to be a good idea.

Cost wise it looks like the 408 may be cheaper than turning my 302 into a 347 w/FI? What do you guys think? Could a good 347 w/FI and no power adders make close to 500hp like a carbed 408? My buddy is running low 11's with a 400+ inch LS1 auto. that he drives everyday so thats my goal.


Thanks again, Dave

There's definitely more that one way to skin a cat. The extra cubic inches from a stroked windsor just makes it a lot easier to get there. You get big block power in a small package and the blocks have been known to hold big power. However, like Sharad said, you can do it with just a 302, some bolt on's and a blower. The downside to that is the weak factory block, when you start throwing some power to them they will split and then your left with the decision of rebuilding another factory block or buying a very expensive aftermarket block. Many guys have made that mistake and found out the hard way that a 351 variant was a better idea. That being said you can reach your goals with a 302 based motor just do some research before you spend the money.
Good luck either way! :bigthumb

[NUTTSGT]

Just don't forget you need more than all that HP to make your goal. All that HP is useless if you can't get it to the ground.

You're going to need sticky tires, suspension, chassis and a cage(to make it legal). All those things add up in cost, be prepared to spend enough money that would a decent down payment on a house.

Get your priorities in order and decide what you want to do and how you are going to accomplish it. Buy a piece at a time and don't be afraid to buy good used parts, some things can be bought used and save money. Pay as you go and don't run up CC debt, you'll hate yourself in the long run if you do. You'll have the car done but won't be able go race because you're spending all your cash trying to pay down debt.

Don't take offense to what I've said, I'm just trying to give you some friendly advice. What you are planning is a big step up for the normal person, from DD to a 10 second street driven car.

[RacerX]

Nutts,
Thats some VERY good financial advise, I agree 100%.

I plan to do a safe car for sure. I come from a stock car background (ARCA, Hooters Cup, local NASCAR etc.) and know that saftey is a must, I hit the wall in turn 3 at Ky. speedway in my ARCA speedway T-Bird at around 150mph backwards and drivers side and walked way, really mad but OK. I hated that track.

I'm glad to say that although cost/value is always an issue, I have a fairly decent budget to the job right. Luckily I'm at a point in my life I can afford some projects like this. I know with out good information you can waste lots of money fast from breakage or just replacing parts that don't work together properly. Correct combination is the key I believe.

I know I don't know enough to make a educated decision on the way to go and thats why I REALLY apreciate all the help. I know my limitations and engines are one of them, as a driver I always concentrated on chassis and suspension and left the power to someone that it was thier specialty. My last engine builder, Jeff Collins from Mooresville NC, slept with an intake under his bed so his "secret" wouldn't get out (engine guys can be charactors, too many late night race fuel fumes?). My last ARCA engine did 780hp, and it was considerd a low hp torque/short track engine.

Again thanks for all the good info and keep it coming!


DR

[Rick93coupe]

Thought you might like to see this video. Somewhere in the video it gives you some of the specs of the car.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_v5_VOBt6XY


Looks surprisingly similar to my coupe.

[RacerX]

Looks like a nice car. I wish they showed more of the engine and more info. I guess I've changed my original parameters a bit:

1. Still streetable (as in drives like a real car, no skinnies on the front and can be a daily driver)
2. Keeps AC and all power acc.
3. No turbo, No NOS
4. No automatic
5. Under 10k budget
6. High 10's on street radials

All these may be a tall order but you need goals I guess. Thanks again for all the suggestions. I found a late 80's EFI 351W today. Still thinking a good 347 could do it, the pluses are I could use my known good engine to start and some of my 302 parts. I gather the weak link in a 347 is the block, not a good place to have a weak link. Thats the first choice to make, 347 or 408-427?



DR

[Rick93coupe]

You can lead a horse to water.... ;)

[RacerX]

I have been thinging of this one, and is has a WARRENTY!

http://www.roushyatesparts.com/parts-p/m-6007-z347.htm

What would I need to make my FI work on this? What # injectors? Fuel rail? What pump? What size TB? What MAF? What FI intake? Computer? Anything else?





DR

[Walter]

I have been thinging of this one, and is has a WARRENTY!

http://www.roushyatesparts.com/parts-p/m-6007-z347.htm

What would I need to make my FI work on this? What # injectors? Fuel rail? What pump? What size TB? What MAF? What FI intake? Computer? Anything else?




DR

Sounds like you have a lot of research to do.

[2Kblacksleeper]

The best thing you could do before you spend alot of money is, go through this site and other mustang forums build threads and read what other people have done and their results.

I did this and said to my self i would never do a 331 or 347 because it is alot of work to go through and have the block as the weak link.

I know i would go through all this trouble to swap the 331,347 and then it could be a month or a year and then i would be wanting more.

So i set my mind on a 351 based motor.

Well that didnt work out. I ended up finding a killer deal on a 347 with really good internal parts. So i am putting that in my car and in a year or 2 i will swap out for an aftermarket block and then really go hunting.

John

[Timido]

Put a coyote motor and a tremec in a very light fox it would probably run 10s on radials and get 33 MPG perfect street car

[Rich]

Put a coyote motor and a tremec in a very light fox it would probably run 10s on radials and get 33 MPG perfect street car

One bad ass factory power plant!

[RacerX]

STK,
You said it, a LOT of research to do. Many ways to skin a cat as stated earlier and I know there are some guys on here (like Timido) that are experts and done this kind of thing before. I know all engines/cars need a bit differant combination to be optimum but I'm just looking for a good starting point.

The block is a BIG concern but that Ford crate engine has that good 4 bolt race block so it should be as reliable as a stock 351W (?)

Timido, so said it! That would be an awesome swap but WAY, WAY out of my budget!




Thanks again, DR

[2Kblacksleeper]

True but, you could get a good 351 based stroker from ford strokers.com for a hell of alot less.

[Rick93coupe]

http://www.stangbangerz.com/forums/showthread.php?t=65923

This right here would be a great option. Great block, great heads, I could go on and on.

[RacerX]

2K,
Ford strokers have some good prices but I think the Ford Racing piece is a better value. I have a buddy that works at the Ford trans. plant and he said today he gets 20% off retail so that puts it in the $6500 range and it comes with pan to intake and good balancer to steel flywheel. And again, the good 4 bolt block and a warrenty. That seems to be hard to beat, I know the parts from Ford would cost more than that by a good margin. I was also thinking I could put my 850hp carb on untill I figured out the FI combination.

That 410 sounds like a REAL nice piece too....


DR

[RacerX]

Anyone have get any discounts from any local dealers? My friend hasn't got back to me yet. He's picking up his new Shelby from Castrucci this weekend so you would think spending 50k on a Mustang they might give him a parts discount? He had to pay full boat on the car, they don't A-plan 550hp Shelbys, lol.





DR