Senate Bill 5 Ohio

[89notch]

I normally try to avoid politics on here but these needs to be talked about.

Ohio Senate Bill 5
I don't know if everyone is following this bill but please take a second to review it. This bill is an attack on middle class Ohio and public employees. This bill will strip the majority of collective bargaining rights that Ohio is well know for. This bill effects Teachers, State Employees (Prison guard etc.) Police officers, and Firefighters. This will drive the quality of service for public safety to an unacceptable level. School systems will be destroyed by the impact of this bill by driving the good teachers out of the system. Ohio's budget is 8 billion dollars in the negative and cuts need to be made. However employment costs from the state budget make up less than 10% of the over all budget. Even if they laid off every state employee, teacher, police officer and firefighter it still wouldn't fix the budget issue.

This bill also strips binding arbitration from Police Officers, Firefighters and prison guards leaving the possibility of a strike if a contract cant be settled. We cannot allow this to happen.

Public employees have already taken over 200 million dollars in concessions over the last 3 years.

Please take a couple minutes and help support your Teachers, Firefighters, Police and State employees and email your senators.

TELL THEM TO VOTE NO ON SENATE BILL 5

http://protectohioprotectors.org/

Senators email address can be found here
http://www.ohiosenate.gov/directory.html

[snotzs135]

+1 Thanks for posting Kelly

[Evil_Capri]

Thanks for posting . . . I need to learn more about this Bill before I declare my vote . . .

For instance . . . this part seems fine . .

The bill does not take away the ability for public employees to earn annual raises. Instead of every employee earning a raise for just putting in another year of work without getting fired; annual raises would become performance based. Current laws give the same raises to the teacher with the worst evaluations and attendance as is awarded to the most dedicated and competent educator. The law would also permit lay-offs to be based upon merit and not seniority.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ac/20110216/tr_ac/7872586_ohio_senate_bill_5_creates_circuslike_atmo sphere_at_state_house

And . .

If it passes, SB 5 will eliminate collective bargaining privileges for workers employed by the State of Ohio. Changes for public employees would include the elimination of binding arbitration for safety forces. Annual "step" increases would also be removed from the list of state laws. Currently, public employees garner the raises based solely upon the number of years worked and not performance, attendance or advanced training or education.

Not a good situation regardless. I need to talk with some of my friends in the public sector as well to get their thoughts and feelings . . .

[Timido]

If you have ever worked in the private work force you would understand that it sucks to work several years without any wage increase and pay for rising health care. They want to take any leverage that the union employees have to get any cost of living increases and reasonable health care. They are trying to ballance the out of control spending and poor planning by screwing the middle class worker.

[fasthawk]

Looks good to me , i always thought raises where suppose to be performace based . Maybe this a way to give rid of lazy asses. Maybe if some of the people have promblems with this they need to look at themshelves in the mirror.

[fastone]

Thanks for posting . . . I need to learn more about this Bill before I declare my vote . . .

For instance . . . this part seems fine . .


http://news.yahoo.com/s/ac/20110216/tr_ac/7872586_ohio_senate_bill_5_creates_circuslike_atmo sphere_at_state_house

And . .


Not a good situation regardless. I need to talk with some of my friends in the public sector as well to get their thoughts and feelings . . .


There is a very bad side of "pay for performance" raises as they are called most of the time. If you are very good friends with your boss or officer that is doing your review and you have been sub-par for the last year. What are the chances of him giving you a raise? Very good! Trust me, been down this road before. The thing that sucks, there is no really good way to decide on pay raises unless you bring someone from the outside to look at it. This goes for everywhere.

[fastone]

I normally try to avoid politics on here but these needs to be talked about.

Ohio Senate Bill 5
I don't know if everyone is following this bill but please take a second to review it. This bill is an attack on middle class Ohio and public employees. This bill will strip the majority of collective bargaining rights that Ohio is well know for. This bill effects Teachers, State Employees (Prison guard etc.) Police officers, and Firefighters. This will drive the quality of service for public safety to an unacceptable level. School systems will be destroyed by the impact of this bill by driving the good teachers out of the system. Ohio's budget is 8 billion dollars in the negative and cuts need to be made. However employment costs from the state budget make up less than 10% of the over all budget. Even if they laid off every state employee, teacher, police officer and firefighter it still wouldn't fix the budget issue.

This bill also strips binding arbitration from Police Officers, Firefighters and prison guards leaving the possibility of a strike if a contract cant be settled. We cannot allow this to happen.

Public employees have already taken over 200 million dollars in concessions over the last 3 years.

Please take a couple minutes and help support your Teachers, Firefighters, Police and State employees and email your senators.

TELL THEM TO VOTE NO ON SENATE BILL 5

http://protectohioprotectors.org/

Senators email address can be found here
http://www.ohiosenate.gov/directory.html


Kelly, we have a rep in KY that wants to take away our retirement and got towards a 401k plan for new hires. But the new hires would pay money to fund the retirement of those already in the old system. Seems like in the last year we (public sector) have came under fire for no reason. The system works and it's a "BENEFIT" of doing a job many can't or don't want to do. The chances of my wife going to work five days a week and not getting hurt other than a paper cut is high. Our career, we could get hurt or killed in a split second. Just sucks that the elected officials that have under funded the accounts for retirements for years now have the nerve to blame us for there f%&k up.

[89notch]

Thanks for posting . . . I need to learn more about this Bill before I declare my vote . . .

For instance . . . this part seems fine . .


http://news.yahoo.com/s/ac/20110216/tr_ac/7872586_ohio_senate_bill_5_creates_circuslike_atmo sphere_at_state_house

And . .


Not a good situation regardless. I need to talk with some of my friends in the public sector as well to get their thoughts and feelings . . .

If you look at what the bill does as a whole it doesn't really allow for "performance base" raises either. It does however allow management to just gut employees pay and up the cost of every benefit without any repercussion. It also allows managers to bring back the "good Ole boy" system.

The majority of the problems that witnesses have testified to appears to be a result of poor negotiation. The problem to me sounds like the management teams should put their focus on bettering themselves in negotiation technique.

[cstreu1026]

I say scrap the entire system and start over. It's broken period.

[Gene]

Public employees have already taken over 200 million dollars in concessions over the last 3 years.

And how much in concessions, wage freezes, layoffs, etc have private sector employees taken in the last 3 years?

[fastone]

And how much in concessions, wage freezes, layoffs, etc have private sector employees taken in the last 3 years?

None that I know of, but then again if you owned a bank and cheated the system, the government gave you billions to bail you out!

[Ranger50]

I say scrap the entire system and start over. It's broken period.

+1. But let's not start over, E-lim-in-ate.

[Timido]

I am in a union that had lay offs at the beginning of the year. I also had a 30% health coverage increase last contract. They still get hit with concessions layoffs just like everyone else.

[cstreu1026]

And how much in concessions, wage freezes, layoffs, etc have private sector employees taken in the last 3 years?
I don't think I have a calculator with enough digits.


None that I know of, but then again if you owned a bank and cheated the system, the government gave you billions to bail you out!

Seriously? Private sector employees don't get pray freezes. pay cuts,, laid off etc? I really hope that is not what you are saying because a know of a lot of folks in the private sector that had all of the above.

[Mustard]

Im not a fan of Unions myself. My mom was in one for 17 years and in the end they screwed her over royal. That was a private sector union. As for Public sector. Dont forget to relize that the private sector taxes pay the public sector wages. Why should a public sector,lets say janitor, make almost double the wage of a private sector janitor? Tax payers have had enough really and they want changes. Is it fair? That not for me to decide. In the end I see a lot more of this happenig across the country. I for oe fully support The Govenor of Wisconsin and what he is trying to do there. Just my 2 cents

[Timido]

What does a Janiter make in the private sector? I know as a Mechanic I was paid more at a dealer than I did in my Union Job. I had better benefits and long term retirement in the Union job. I am just now 7 years later making close to what I was making in the private sector as a Mechanic. Not all situations are the same but If the wages in a public Union Job were that much better everyone would be looking for them.

[fasthawk]

What does a Janiter make in the private sector? I know as a Mechanic I was paid more at a dealer than I did in my Union Job. I had better benefits and long term retirement in the Union job. I am just now 7 years later making close to what I was making in the private sector as a Mechanic. Not all situations are the same but If the wages in a public Union Job were that much better everyone would be looking for them.


I would say you were flat rate at a dealer to and decided to take less pay and less work for better benefits and retirement and long term health care.Most union jobs are 25 to 30 years and you can retire but in todays world the money is not there for 30 year pensions and health care for people.I know people that have retired from union jobs at 55 and go back to work while getting full retirement benefits. Keep shipping jobs over seas and were will have a bigger mess than we have already.

[RIXXX93GT]

Very touchy subject here depending on your experiences with labor unions and what not. I will say that I have first hand experience both as an employee and a manager in an established yearly across the board raise and pay for performance system. In my eyes everyone should be evaluated based on their work performance and if yours sucks then too bad work smarter and harder. During tough times when global competition has put everyone in the ring, things have shifted from not only performance based raises to performance based employment. We no longer keep the underachiever based on seniority and our company has become stronger because of it. I could go on all day about this subject but if your business is not using a true performance based system......your now considered a dinosaur.

[89notch]

And how much in concessions, wage freezes, layoffs, etc have private sector employees taken in the last 3 years?

I was just giving a figure for Ohio.

The figures are comparable employee(Public) to employee(Private)

[89notch]

Also my Union raises are still based on my performance review that is completed yearly. Also I have had my health care costs go up 70% over the last 3 years. Please don't put all unions into one group. I know of a lot of private sector jobs that abuse the system .

I understand that some unions in the past have protected bad employees etc. but all in all public unions do serve a great purpose.

[RIXXX93GT]

Also my Union raises are still based on my performance review that is completed yearly. Also I have had my health care costs go up 70% over the last 3 years. Please don't put all unions into one group. I know of a lot of private sector jobs that abuse the system .

I understand that some unions in the past have protected bad employees etc. but all in all public unions do serve a great purpose.

Everyones benefits have been slashed and had huge increases in premiums, 401ks...gone....profit sharing....gone....vacation time.....slashed....pay cuts.

[fastone]

Unions for police and fire for some reason are different than those for others. We will take major pay cuts to keep people working. I have not heard of any big companies in our country give huge pay cuts. They have had lay offs and such. But Kelly would have to help me, I'm not completely for sure on lay off numbers but I know it is a huge number for fire and police. And if you figure in on that number those that have retired and their old position has not been filled.

[89notch]

Everyones benefits have been slashed and had huge increases in premiums, 401ks...gone....profit sharing....gone....vacation time.....slashed....pay cuts.

I know thats my point people act like public jobs haven't had anything taken from them and its just not true. 200+million in concessions in Ohio over the last 3 years.

This bill doesn't effect me as much as it does Teachers and State employees. However I don't want to see the school systems gutted in my community which is what is going to happen.

[redfirepearlgt]

If you have ever worked in the private work force you would understand that it sucks to work several years without any wage increase and pay for rising health care. They want to take any leverage that the union employees have to get any cost of living increases and reasonable health care. They are trying to ballance the out of control spending and poor planning by screwing the middle class worker.


Looks good to me , i always thought raises where suppose to be performace based . Maybe this a way to give rid of lazy asses. Maybe if some of the people have promblems with this they need to look at themshelves in the mirror.

My thoughts exactly. Took a 10% paycut, and lost my 401K matching for 18 months. I don't have any pension other than that. Watched colleague after colleague walked out due to cut backs and tightening the belt. I feel no sympathy for those in government union protected jobs, and as for teachers the tenure thing needs to go. Tenure got this education system we have ranked 24th globally for math and science learning adn 1st in self esteem. So great our kids feel good about themselves and their 24th placing education globally.:mad:

[89notch]

My thoughts exactly. Took a 10% paycut, and lost my 401K matching for 18 months. I don't have any pension other than that. Watched colleague after colleague walked out due to cut backs and tightening the belt. I feel no sympathy for those in government union protected jobs, and as for teachers the tenure thing needs to go. Tenure got this education system we have ranked 24th globally for math and science learning adn 1st in self esteem. So great our kids feel good about themselves and their 24th placing education globally.:mad:

You don't think this has happened in the public sector? The pension system in Cincinnati is in the position its in due to the City not paying any contributions(equal to private 401k match) in over 3 years. The employees are funding their own pension with their own money no different than a 401K.


Why do people think public jobs are untouchable? I wish people would realize the public sector has taken just as many hits as private.

[Rich]

Unions for police and fire for some reason are different than those for others.

Police and Fire are not true Unions. They have no ability to strike due to state law, which was passed in 1983. This is due to the public safety aspect. Because of this the State legislatures agreed that they (Police and Fire) were to have collective bargaining rights. This ensures safety for the public and fairness for the police/fire units.

[89notch]

Also were not eligible for Social Security either where private sector is eligible.

[redfirepearlgt]

You don't think this has happened in the public sector? The pension system in Cincinnati is in the position its in due to the City not paying any contributions(equal to private 401k match) in over 3 years. The employees are funding their own pension with their own money no different than a 401K.


Why do people think public jobs are untouchable? I wish people would realize the public sector has taken just as many hits as private.

How about some specifics? General statements as you have made little to hold no water at all. I gave you numbers. Real numbers you can verify with my company if you like. You want people to feel your pain? Then lay out specifics. Like many, I am also tired of general statements like yours coming from government employees and teachers who cry about not getting a pay raise or having to take a pay freeze, or having to contribute to their pension plans. Tough titty!!! WAH!!!! Justify the fact that the Deer Park Superintendant makes $130,000 a year and had the balls to tell me she was more than worth her salary. She oversees four school buildings. Justify the fact that 6 public officials in Bell, California (finally indicted) took millions from the tax payers over years before being busted and did so legally through loop holes. Justify tax payers being required to pick up the tab on Deer Park's new fancy 2.1 million dollar town hall through property tax hikes because the town built it on state fundning that was later repealed? The old facility worked perfectly well. Add to the fact that the jail in the basement was recently condemned unusable because of a water pipe bursting and flooding the jail just after they opened the new facility. Overcome the fact that the AVERAGE state and fed govt workers annual salary in this country exceeds $123,000.00 per year not including beneifts. This does not include executive positions of power. People are catching on. Your arguments holds no water with me or many others tired of carrying this oversized burden. It's time and well overdue to trim the fat and the waste.

[Timido]

Trim the fat and waste but they are trying to take the collective bargening away from us. I think you are correct that at all levels they need to cut back wastefull spending. I am fine with that but they are trying to pin the burden of that spending on the workers. You take that away and all the little worker bees will take the hit while the CEOs and higher pay manangers smile and make more money.

[Timido]

I would say you were flat rate at a dealer to and decided to take less pay and less work for better benefits and retirement and long term health care.Most union jobs are 25 to 30 years and you can retire but in todays world the money is not there for 30 year pensions and health care for people.I know people that have retired from union jobs at 55 and go back to work while getting full retirement benefits. Keep shipping jobs over seas and were will have a bigger mess than we have already.

Right now for us it is 30 years but OPERS is going to try to change the terms like everything else the last couple of years has hurt them also. They are talking about making it 32 years and a min 57 years old. I expect it to change many more times by the time I retire. Just like social security and any other pension I am hoping it is still there but I would not 100% count on it.

[fastone]

Police and Fire are not true Unions. They have no ability to strike due to state law, which was passed in 1983. This is due to the public safety aspect. Because of this the State legislatures agreed that they (Police and Fire) were to have collective bargaining rights. This ensures safety for the public and fairness for the police/fire units.

I know that. Im taking about the "brotherhood", I have talked to others in different types of unions and they don't get taken care of like us. Brick mason I know was laid off because his union "brothers" would not take a pay cut to keep him working.

[fastone]

How about some specifics? General statements as you have made little to hold no water at all. I gave you numbers. Real numbers you can verify with my company if you like. You want people to feel your pain? Then lay out specifics. Like many, I am also tired of general statements like yours coming from government employees and teachers who cry about not getting a pay raise or having to take a pay freeze, or having to contribute to their pension plans. Tough titty!!! WAH!!!! Justify the fact that the Deer Park Superintendant makes $130,000 a year and had the balls to tell me she was more than worth her salary. She oversees four school buildings. Justify the fact that 6 public officials in Bell, California (finally indicted) took millions from the tax payers over years before being busted and did so legally through loop holes. Justify tax payers being required to pick up the tab on Deer Park's new fancy 2.1 million dollar town hall through property tax hikes because the town built it on state fundning that was later repealed? The old facility worked perfectly well. Add to the fact that the jail in the basement was recently condemned unusable because of a water pipe bursting and flooding the jail just after they opened the new facility. Overcome the fact that the AVERAGE state and fed govt workers annual salary in this country exceeds $123,000.00 per year not including beneifts. This does not include executive positions of power. People are catching on. Your arguments holds no water with me or many others tired of carrying this oversized burden. It's time and well overdue to trim the fat and the waste.

I am speaking from the south side of the river. But my mother works in Ohio as a teacher, and due to having a masters degree she makes more than the average teacher. Alot of our retirements for government/public was years ago we didn't have high paying jobs. Now that people get degrees and such they get paid more. I make 53 a year as a firefighter/paramedic, I make 15% more than an EMT due to my training. I can retire in 20 years making 50% of my highest 3 years. I have to pay for my insurance at retirement. Between my employer and myself, of 53 grand a year, we pay on top of that, almost 25 grand more for my retirement. So we are paid a high dollar on paper but what we take home is alot less. The state of KY has not made their payments to our retirement in at least 10 years. I agree that there are people making way to much for their job. Would like to see something like what KY does for the sheriff. His salary is directly tied to how many people live in the county. I know the superintenent for Newport schools lives in Ohio which is illegal for KY but also makes well over 200 grand a year and has a take home car. Maybe his pay should be tied to how many kids are in his district?

[fastone]

And in KY our retirement is a benefit. We work holidays, when is snows and you don't have to work, we do. When you have to tell people their loved one is passed away and there is nothing we can do, we have to do that. When your house is on fire, we come and risk our lives to save your property. This is one of the benefits that is being attacked in KY. I know the private sector has had benefit cuts, but for the police and fire only, this will seriously put peoples lives at risk. Being able to retire at 20 years was one of the reasons I choose this career. Yeah I will probably not retire at 20 years, I can stay for up to 7 more years for 2.5% more on my retirement. But we can't come back for a second retirement.

I just love it thought, 10 years ago this Sept police and fire went into buildings in New York City, probably knowing the outcome. They did and those of us that work other places take that chance everyday when we go to work. I understand the country is in bad shape, but sometimes people need to take a walk in others shoes. I do that, I tell people that need to go to the hospital but don't have money for the squad. I tell them we soft bill, they don't have to pay that bill. My department gave away, over 1 grand of toys and clothes to needy families this Christmas. And it was our own money we spent, there is only 24 full time guys, but it was our money we used.

[89notch]

What would you like facts on?

[JET50213]

The state is going to tack on an additional five years before cops can retire and take away our ability to negotiate for competitive wages and benefits. Add that to the alarming fatality rate this year, and you can bet we are going to lose a lot of quality officers! I know many unions have been destructive, but do we really want to mess with the quality of public safety?

[NUTTSGT]

SB5 is not merely a black and white issue. There are problems that need addressed and things that need fixed, I will not disagree with that.

Imagine this scenario. Billy Joe Bob Smith, owns a business in town. Billy Joe Bob is a shrewd business man, yet smoozes to general public who thinks he's great. He runs for mayor and gets elected. Six months after elections, he has a fire at his home. The fire dept puts the fire out, saves his wifes favorite poodle and his MIL's shoe collection. The next day, his wife gets a speeding ticket and a $89 fine. Since the FD guys saved his house, he decides they need a raise, how about another buck on the hour. Three months after the FD guys get a raise, the general fund is getting short. Billy Joe Bob decides since the PD gave his wife a ticket, he needs to lay off 3 officers. Seem far fetched, yes it is but it be allowed by SB5 and there's nothing the PD can do about it. He gave the FD a raise based on merit, and fixed a fiscal shortcoming.

Take a look around at your local politicians, those are the people spending your tax dollars will no reprecussions.

[mustang8998]

Add that to the alarming fatality rate this year, and you can bet we are going to lose a lot of quality officers!

Please explain that statement. It makes no sense.

And someone, please explain to me how collective bargaining, benefits the public.

If you took the job, for the early retirement.....well....sucks to be you. Welcome to the boat, the rest of us live on.

And, if you are truly a brotherhood, how can you stand next to your brothers and say you won't take a concession, when that very brother might be laid-off.

What about the teacher, that took a personnel day, to go protest and all the while saying it was "for the children". Seriously, you're not teaching your precious children AND YOUR GETTING PAID? Real noble.

I think most of us here, will agree. We need the best police, fire, EMT and all the other positions that are provided. But understand, we are broke. The money is not there, for all the perks that people have become used to. I know all about the management type positions, that are abusing the system too and that needs to be addressed, as well.

And, I can't sympathize with anyone, who would work for anyplace that doesn't pay you on your merit. I work hard, take care of the interests of my company and always strive to make things better. I don't think I'm getting rich, but I do feel that I am treated fairly and I'm well compensated.

[redfirepearlgt]

What would you like facts on?

okay,
1.) How much of a pay cut have you taken during this recession?
2.) How many weeks of furlow (without pay) have you had to take each year?
3.) How many pay freezes have you taken?
4.) How many layoffs have occurred in your line of work specifically where you work?

Or better yet, save us the stats and violins. The next time you want some sympathy on how bad you may have it, or how bad it may get because of some policy changes coming down the road, spend a moment or two thinking or researching about the sacrifices an active duty enlisted service man or woman make when they sign that enlistment paper. If you have served as an enlisted active duty man do some soul searching and remember back to what it was really like to make sacrifices. The sacrifices of being away from family and spouse for months and years at a time, adverse living conditions, and poverty level wages for putting your life on the line to keep this country free. Think about that and then ask yourself, "Compared to them what do I really have to be in a snit about?"

Enjoy your weekend.

[89notch]

okay,
1.) How much of a pay cut have you taken during this recession?
2.) How many weeks of furlow (without pay) have you had to take each year?
3.) How many pay freezes have you taken?
4.) How many layoffs have occurred in your line of work specifically where you work?



Enjoy your weekend.

My situation is different than most in public safety. The city I work for was in a recession and in a financial emergency 6 of the last nine years. With the last 3 actually being the best. So while the economy was booming and everyone was getting raises(1999-2008) etc our department was struggling. My department left 6 positions open out of 33 for years because of money. We also took pay cuts and freezes 6 of the last 9 years. Then on top of that our health insurance has went up 70% of our out of pocket expense. Our minimum staffing levels have decreased to 8 to attempt to save money. All of this was to avoid staffing levels being cut anymore.

Its not only about the money for us its also about safety. With us at minimum staffing it only allows 2 man engine companies. That alone is reason for us needing collective bargaining because a councilman doesn't care about staffing only about money.

No with that being said the last 3 years we have been doing great since our city is booming right now. With the financial situation our city is in we have been fortunate to not have to cut back nearly as much as neighboring communities.

So to summarize.
Lost 6 out of 33 jobs
Pay freezes 6 of the last 9 years
70% increase in out of pocket health care costs
Staffing levels at a very dangerous level

[WARMACHINE]

Redfirepearlgt; in the same paragraph you said make some specifics you made a general statement about how much the deer park superintendent makes $130,000 doesn't mean all superintendents make $130,000. I work for the city of springfield and I know that people in the private sector in the same line of work are making more than I do already so when you talk about a 10% paycut you might be making as little as I do now and we haven't had any raises for the last three years. Now try to see both sides of the story.

[Timido]

Yet the military does not get pay raises solley based on meriet. They get pay raises when they make rank. They also receive pay raises for cost of living and time in grade.

[redfirepearlgt]

Redfirepearlgt; in the same paragraph you said make some specifics you made a general statement about how much the deer park superintendent makes $130,000 doesn't mean all superintendents make $130,000. I work for the city of springfield and I know that people in the private sector in the same line of work are making more than I do already so when you talk about a 10% paycut you might be making as little as I do now and we haven't had any raises for the last three years. Now try to see both sides of the story.


The salary quoted was specific to my area school district superintednent and referenced no other. What would be more specific?:confused:

Should I have said "be less vague"? in lieu of the term "specifics"?:)

[mustang8998]

They get pay raises when they make rank.

I would hope that making rank, is based on ability and how well they perform. That would be merit. It is earned, not given due to time on the job! It really is that simple. EARN YOUR KEEP!

This is where I lose all faith, in unions. Were I work, I know full well, that I do a good job and others slack. But, I don't worry, because I know I make more money (some of that, is because of seniority) than the slackers. If we were in a union situation, we would make the same money. Where would the incentive be, for me to work harder?

[redfirepearlgt]

I would hope that making rank, is based on ability and how well they perform. That would be merit. It is earned, not given due to time on the job! It really is that simple. EARN YOUR KEEP!

This is where I lose all faith, in unions. Were I work, I know full well, that I do a good job and others slack. But, I don't worry, because I know I make more money (some of that, is because of seniority) than the slackers. If we were in a union situation, we would make the same money. Where would the incentive be, for me to work harder?

Making rank in the Navy required first off time in grade. The only advance with time in grade only was from E1-E2 when I was enlisted. E3 was given with time in rank, successful completion of A school, and I think the term was PARS, which was an open book study guide with tests taht you had to complete and pass overall before being advanced. Evaluations were also factored in.

E4 required 9 months as E3, PARs, passing leadership exam, personal evaluations on your ability military bearing etc., and finally the 150 question advnacement exam had to be taken and passed. After that the number of people needed to fill positions would be determined within your rating /specialty and the highest scoring would be advanced. So you could pass everything and then not advance. It was referred to as as PNA (passed but not advanced)E5 advancement required 1 year in grade I believe an then the same procedd all over again. Testing was performed twice per year. Hope that answers your question. No enlisted poeple do not get advanced (at least in the navy) just because they are due time wise for advancement.

There are some pay increases for time in grade but it is not as much as moving up the pay scale and does flatten out to 0 if in the paygrade beyond a certain amount of time.

Feel similar to you about unions but I have also seen some places taht could use a union to get a resepctable wage to the worker being taken for granted. Pros and Cons on both, but understand you comment fully. I am not union BTW.

[CNTLOSE]

I would hope that making rank, is based on ability and how well they perform. That would be merit. It is earned, not given due to time on the job! It really is that simple. EARN YOUR KEEP!



So you want a bunch of Cops out there having to write as many tickets and arrests as possible to make stats? Because that is exactly what you will get. Take all Officer discretion away and make them keep their jobs by writing the soccer mom a ticket for 5 mph over? Putting you in jail for public intoxication instead of letting someone pick you up? That is probably one of the worst parts of the bill.

This bill has a few good points. Transparency on the contracts I think is a great idea. I would love for the public to see the truth and not what the liberal media "reports". Public employees have almost always been willing to help their employers out in hard economic times...only to be screwed by the same administration who will turn around and give themselves a nice little bonus. (Ask any Dayton Officer about this.)

[mustang8998]

So you want a bunch of Cops out there having to write as many tickets and arrests as possible to make stats? Because that is exactly what you will get. Take all Officer discretion away and make them keep their jobs by writing the soccer mom a ticket for 5 mph over? Putting you in jail for public intoxication instead of letting someone pick you up? That is probably one of the worst parts of the bill.

This bill has a few good points. Transparency on the contracts I think is a great idea. I would love for the public to see the truth and not what the liberal media "reports". Public employees have almost always been willing to help their employers out in hard economic times...only to be screwed by the same administration who will turn around and give themselves a nice little bonus. (Ask any Dayton Officer about this.)

Well, in a way, yes. I know officers will get a complaint call. It happens all the time. It is usually met with, "we'll pass this on". Does it truly get passed on? Who knows. What can be summed up, as a negative, never gets reported. (What, you don't think any of your own, cover for you.) I have been cut slack, many times, but does that negatively affect an officers performance? I wouldn't think so. I never said it was a "quota system".

It just seems to me, that if it is all about "unity", then why would you throw your brothers, under the bus.

[gordon]

I've got news for ya folks, if you let the government strip union rights, guess who's rights are next? That's right.

[beefcake]

I am in a union that had lay offs at the beginning of the year. I also had a 30% health coverage increase last contract. They still get hit with concessions layoffs just like everyone else.

I pay $9000 a year for health care and have a $2000 deductible.

So, I pay $11,000 a year before I get a penny of help.

Sucks big time

[89notch]

I pay $9000 a year for health care and have a $2000 deductible.

So, I pay $11,000 a year before I get a penny of help.

Sucks big time


I agree that is crazy.
Are you a 10-99 employee?

My family plan at work breakdown

Plan premium for employee
160/pay x 26 weeks= 4160
Deductible 3000
For a total of 7160/ year

Here is the catch. If you meet the deductible you then start co-pays depending on the tier of the prescription ranging from $10/month to $500 a month additional with a max out of pocket of another 2k.

Bringing the total to 9160/year

I meet and exceed my deductible every year and I only take 2 medicines for my allergies


I know it’s still less than yours but I just want people to realize that we are hurting just as bad as everyone else. People from the outside looking in think we have it so great. Yes we have some perks that are better than some private sector employees but they also have some better than us. For example overtime, private sector employees typically only work 40 hours a week where I am required to work 53 hours a week without any additional compensation. I would also like to point out that we rarely get any overtime at work for those that think it’s endless.

Then the pension debate starts. Yes I do have a state funded pension that I help pay for. I pay 10% of my contribution where private employees only pay 6% to social security. Then people like to throw out SS probably won’t be there when I retire. My pension isn’t guaranteed anymore than your SS is and with the shape my pension fund is headed I'm worried. Since the pension fund is hurting I also have to contribute to a deferred comp plan that I don’t get any match on. Private sectors have or had match programs in the past.

I'm sorry if it looks like I'm attacking but I just want people to realize that it’s not the working people that are causing these problems.

10% of the state’s budget is for employment costs this obviously isn’t the reason for the deficit.

[firestang70]

Kelly it is proposed our contribution is going up to 12.25%. 25 possibly going to 30 on retirement. The minimum DROP going to 5 years. People complain we get paid to sleep etc. That is IF we even get to sleep at night. Our sleep cycles are never where they need to be. We go from a deep sleep to full throttle when the bell rings, extreme heat stress from the gear and the enviroment. I'm suprised we aren't losing more FFs every year. Glad we have it so much better than private sector employees. Could you imagine if private sector employees had to do even a portion of the continuing ed we do. The hours I have to keep up my firefighter,paramedic,inspector,fire instructor, ce ems instructor,CEFI,Blue Card, cpr,acls,pals.

We need to be smart and become professional poloiticians. I will be a rep for one term. I will get a pension, full insurance benefits, take money from lobbyists, work parttime hours for fulltime pay. Thats it I'm running for office.

[NUTTSGT]

This bill has a few good points. Transparency on the contracts I think is a great idea. I would love for the public to see the truth and not what the liberal media "reports". Public employees have almost always been willing to help their employers out in hard economic times...only to be screwed by the same administration who will turn around and give themselves a nice little bonus. (Ask any Dayton Officer about this.)


If you want transparency on the contracts, most of them should be here. Take a look for yourself.



http://www.serb.state.oh.us/sections/research/WEB%20CONTRACTS/WEB%20CONTRACT%20LIST.pdf

[BigBadStang]

...Could you imagine if private sector employees had to do even a portion of the continuing ed we do. The hours I have to keep up my firefighter,paramedic,inspector,fire instructor, ce ems instructor,CEFI,Blue Card, cpr,acls,pals.

Who pays for all that education?
I have family members that are firefighters and EMS, and all the seminars, training and schooling they attend is 100% paid by the municipalities that they work for, whether they are full time, or part time. They are also compensated their regular working wage for the hours spent in training etc. They also use all that education that is paid for by the municipalities to do other things on the side, such as arson investigation technics, putting on their own seminars for various things, or teaching classes at facilities like Butler Tech.

[89notch]

Who pays for all that education?
I have family members that are firefighters and EMS, and all the seminars, training and schooling they attend is 100% paid by the municipalities that they work for, whether they are full time, or part time. They are also compensated their regular working wage for the hours spent in training etc. They also use all that education that is paid for by the municipalities to do other things on the side, such as arson investigation technics, putting on their own seminars for various things, or teaching classes at facilities like Butler Tech.
I'd like to work where they work. I have never worked at a place that does any of that. Most of the certifications you talk about are required prior to employment full-time. I paid for the majority of my own classes and they provide me some continuing education while on duty. I have never been compensated for classes since I've been full-time and don't know of many others who have either.
I've worked at 5 different departments in butler, Warren, Montgomery and Hamilton county and I assure you that's not typical.

[fastone]

Who pays for all that education?
I have family members that are firefighters and EMS, and all the seminars, training and schooling they attend is 100% paid by the municipalities that they work for, whether they are full time, or part time. They are also compensated their regular working wage for the hours spent in training etc. They also use all that education that is paid for by the municipalities to do other things on the side, such as arson investigation technics, putting on their own seminars for various things, or teaching classes at facilities like Butler Tech.

My dog in this fight is in KY. Some of my training is paid for, but most is not. Has not been for three years. If I want to attend training out of town I have to pay for everything. And if I know I will be making money for it, example, CPR, I do that on my own time and money. But I can teach via my department, but they make a killing with it. So I stay away from it and also don't deal with anyone or business that used the department. Alot of departments if they find out you are using there money they spent on training for a profit for yourself, doesn't normally work out well for the employee. But I'm not to sure on Ohio stuff.

But I think one of Kelly's points it too, if they are trying to break the public unions up. Guess who's next! Probably all unions and who knows what would be next.

[fastone]

Oh yeah, for my orginal training, all my fire hours to get hired. That was out of my pocket. My EMT-B class was my dime and time. And as for the paramedic class, one year of not having a life and about 6 grand, my dime and time again. Stuff to help keep that is what we were orginally paid to take, but not anymore. Plus if your department does anything special, like haz mat that is more training and such. I would bet to keep all my cert's takes over 200+ hrs a year. Granted we do a small amount of training while working on shift but runs and such can stop that.

[JET50213]

Please explain that statement. It makes no sense.

And someone, please explain to me how collective bargaining, benefits the public.

If you took the job, for the early retirement.....well....sucks to be you. Welcome to the boat, the rest of us live on.

And, if you are truly a brotherhood, how can you stand next to your brothers and say you won't take a concession, when that very brother might be laid-off.

What about the teacher, that took a personnel day, to go protest and all the while saying it was "for the children". Seriously, you're not teaching your precious children AND YOUR GETTING PAID? Real noble.

I think most of us here, will agree. We need the best police, fire, EMT and all the other positions that are provided. But understand, we are broke. The money is not there, for all the perks that people have become used to. I know all about the management type positions, that are abusing the system too and that needs to be addressed, as well.

And, I can't sympathize with anyone, who would work for anyplace that doesn't pay you on your merit. I work hard, take care of the interests of my company and always strive to make things better. I don't think I'm getting rich, but I do feel that I am treated fairly and I'm well compensated.

Police work is a dangerous job. It is something that you really need to be called to do. You do not get in to law enforcement for the benefits. The benefits used to be a perk for doing an extremely difficult job that few are willing to do. Personally, my wages are currently frozen. I rallied for a tax increase, that I am paying, to save the jobs of many City workers. Just like everyone else, I am paying more than ever for health care. Those who think that police, firefighters, and teachers are not making concessions......you are just wrong. Just like all bills, SB 5 has some good points and some very scary points. Politicans on both sides are making a mess of our country.....while lining their own pockets!

[beefcake]

I agree that is crazy.
Are you a 10-99 employee?



I'm commissioned, but a w2 employee.

I remember when i went back to GNC, huge company, $17 a week for family, no deductible.

small companies have no barganing power.



Police work is a dangerous job. It is something that you really need to be called to do. You do not get in to law enforcement for the benefits. The benefits used to be a perk for doing an extremely difficult job that few are willing to do. Personally, my wages are currently frozen. I rallied for a tax increase, that I am paying, to save the jobs of many City workers. Just like everyone else, I am paying more than ever for health care. Those who think that police, firefighters, and teachers are not making concessions......you are just wrong. Just like all bills, SB 5 has some good points and some very scary points. Politicans on both sides are making a mess of our country.....while lining their own pockets!

I can honestly say i have the utmost respect for police, and fire for that matter. I think police are in harms way more on a daily basis. But it only takes one bad fire to take a life.

Saw alot of videos of police shot in the line of duty during the ccw class yesterday.

People that complain about being stopped for this or that, and then getting rude with the officer and then being upset i think is dumb.

I always have my hands at 10-2 and have the window down, yes sir, no sir.

Not saying you don't get a cop that pushes the boundaries, but 99% of the time, show respect for them and their job and you'll do fine

[02mingryGT]

I agree with SB 5. The time to cut cost is now. Everyone needs to contribute regardless of your line of work. I take offense to the term "working man" as if that only covers the public sector employees on this board. We are all working men, public or private and it's about time the public sector employees salaries/benefits are inline with private sector employees.

[89notch]

I agree with SB 5. The time to cut cost is now. Everyone needs to contribute regardless of your line of work. I take offense to the term "working man" as if that only covers the public sector employees on this board. We are all working men, public or private and it's about time the public sector employees salaries/benefits are inline with private sector employees.

I agree the studies show we are 3% behind private sectors employees. So I guess we should stop taking concessions now and ask for raises again. Please take a minute to educate yourself and realize that we have taken just as many cuts as private sector employees. The attack on the "working man" is intended to cover all middle class not just public employees. The agenda of the Govenor is to go after private sector employees next.

[Maximus]

Instead of going up there with posters, take your guns and start the revolution. :D

[fasthawk]

I agree with SB 5. The time to cut cost is now. Everyone needs to contribute regardless of your line of work. I take offense to the term "working man" as if that only covers the public sector employees on this board. We are all working men, public or private and it's about time the public sector employees salaries/benefits are inline with private sector employees.

There is a difference between working and putting in time at the job. As far as some people getting into dangerous jobs that is a choice a person makes.

[firestang70]

Who pays for all that education?
I have family members that are firefighters and EMS, and all the seminars, training and schooling they attend is 100% paid by the municipalities that they work for, whether they are full time, or part time. They are also compensated their regular working wage for the hours spent in training etc. They also use all that education that is paid for by the municipalities to do other things on the side, such as arson investigation technics, putting on their own seminars for various things, or teaching classes at facilities like Butler Tech.I am salary so the pay for me is irrelevant. Do you want your emergency workers to have just the bare minimum training? Who doesn't use training or experience of a trade for side work???

[04 Venom]

I agree the studies show we are 3% behind private sectors employees. So I guess we should stop taking concessions now and ask for raises again. Please take a minute to educate yourself and realize that we have taken just as many cuts as private sector employees. The attack on the "working man" is intended to cover all middle class not just public employees. The agenda of the Govenor is to go after private sector employees next.

I don't think the issue so much relates to the cost cutting, but eliminating public employees right to bargain. It is a right guaranteed in federal law for private sector employees. The public employees in Wisconsin apparently have agreed to the concessions, but the governor still wants to eliminate public sector bargaining rights.

[02mingryGT]

I agree the studies show we are 3% behind private sectors employees. So I guess we should stop taking concessions now and ask for raises again. Please take a minute to educate yourself and realize that we have taken just as many cuts as private sector employees. The attack on the "working man" is intended to cover all middle class not just public employees. The agenda of the Govenor is to go after private sector employees next.

Your talking about one side of the argument. I will agree that the salaries for the most part are less than a private employee. But when you include the benefit side of the equation it's above and beyond that of a private employee. Add in the tenure of the teachers and it becomes a joke. Look it comes down to simple mathematics, there are more non-union workers than union workers and us non-union workers are pretty much sick of it. Provisions in the health care law that exempt most union workers, the acts of the SEIU over the past summer have done nothing to help your cause in this state. And now the actions by public employees in Wisconsin are working against you and your plea for compassion. Welcome to the real world of working.
And don't worry Kasich has no control over a private companies pay/benefit structures. To think he does is entirely ludicrous.

[fasthawk]

[QUOTE=02mingryGT;630609]Your talking about one side of the argument. I will agree that the salaries for the most part are less than a private employee. But when you include the benefit side of the equation it's above and beyond that of a private employee. Add in the tenure of the teachers and it becomes a joke. Look it comes down to simple mathematics, there are more non-union workers than union workers and us non-union workers are pretty much sick of it. Provisions in the health care law that exempt most union workers, the acts of the SEIU over the past summer have done nothing to help your cause in this state. And now the actions by public employees in Wisconsin are working against you and your plea for compassion. Welcome to the real world of working.
And don't worry Kasich has no control over a private companies pay/benefit structures. To think he does is entirely ludicrous.

:bigthumb

[89notch]

Your talking about one side of the argument. I will agree that the salaries for the most part are less than a private employee. But when you include the benefit side of the equation it's above and beyond that of a private employee. Add in the tenure of the teachers and it becomes a joke. Look it comes down to simple mathematics, there are more non-union workers than union workers and us non-union workers are pretty much sick of it. Provisions in the health care law that exempt most union workers, the acts of the SEIU over the past summer have done nothing to help your cause in this state. And now the actions by public employees in Wisconsin are working against you and your plea for compassion. Welcome to the real world of working.
And don't worry Kasich has no control over a private companies pay/benefit structures. To think he does is entirely ludicrous.
I was referring to collective bargining rights

[Rob]

Your talking about one side of the argument. I will agree that the salaries for the most part are less than a private employee. But when you include the benefit side of the equation it's above and beyond that of a private employee. Add in the tenure of the teachers and it becomes a joke. Look it comes down to simple mathematics, there are more non-union workers than union workers and us non-union workers are pretty much sick of it. Provisions in the health care law that exempt most union workers, the acts of the SEIU over the past summer have done nothing to help your cause in this state. And now the actions by public employees in Wisconsin are working against you and your plea for compassion. Welcome to the real world of working.
And don't worry Kasich has no control over a private companies pay/benefit structures. To think he does is entirely ludicrous.

there ya go. I have paid my own heath car from day one, Paid for my own education, and no one is getting a raise in this economy. welcome to the real world.

[BigBadStang]

I am salary so the pay for me is irrelevant. Do you want your emergency workers to have just the bare minimum training? Who doesn't use training or experience of a trade for side work???

Why are you asking me this question? If you thought I was being facetious, I was not. I was just wondering if what my family members have going for them was the norm. Of course I wouldn't want these workers to have minimum training.
I know that the schooling to become a FF/EMT/LEO is on the individual, just the same as it is if anyone wanted to get a degree to get into a certain line of work.

As to your question about using training for side work... I, along with the other 3.5 million commercial drivers cannot use my training or experience for side work legally. The DOT strictly and explicitly limits the amount of hours I am allowed to work under the authority of a carrier.

I appreciate, and respect what the majority of FF/EMT/LEO's do, and yes it has the potential to be dangerous, but none of those occupations are in the top 10 of most dangerous jobs in the U.S.
That being said, I do get tired of hearing from some, how they 'put their lives on the line' when there is a tax levy on the ballot.

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2010/08/20/business/economy/economix-20workerfatalities/economix-20workerfatalities-custom1.jpg

[SloMaro]

I understand some people not liking unions. Fine dont join one. But to take away others rights to have collective bargaining boggles my mind.

[firestang70]

Why are you asking me this question? If you thought I was being facetious, I was not. I was just wondering if what my family members have going for them was the norm. Of course I wouldn't want these workers to have minimum training.
I know that the schooling to become a FF/EMT/LEO is on the individual, just the same as it is if anyone wanted to get a degree to get into a certain line of work.

As to your question about using training for side work... I, along with the other 3.5 million commercial drivers cannot use my training or experience for side work legally. The DOT strictly and explicitly limits the amount of hours I am allowed to work under the authority of a carrier.

I appreciate, and respect what the majority of FF/EMT/LEO's do, and yes it has the potential to be dangerous, but none of those occupations are in the top 10 of most dangerous jobs in the U.S.
That being said, I do get tired of hearing from some, how they 'put their lives on the line' when there is a tax levy on the ballot.

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2010/08/20/business/economy/economix-20workerfatalities/economix-20workerfatalities-custom1.jpg

I personally do Fire/EMS training on the side. thats a win/win situation for me. I make extra money and it helps keep all my skills fresh, and keeps me researching for better/safer ways to do my job. I also work part time at other fire departments.

Potentially dangerous everytime we leave the apron. If I videotaped drivers when responding to details it should piss people off. They don't pay attention, they don't give the correct right of way, which is pull to the right and stop. Instead we have those that try to outrun and stay ahead of you. Slam on their brakes right where they are. Some pull to the left and stop. Some that just keep hugging the left lane and never stop. thats just getting to the actual emergency.

To have adequate protection is expensive overall. Its costs the average homeowner $1.35 a day for adequate fire/ems protection. I live in a rural area with all volunteer services. If I call 911 it could be a lengthy time before ANYONE much leas an adequate number of responders arrive. Unfortunately most folks don't know everything that is involved with providing a quality service.

Now to the list provided above on more dangerous jobs, how many of those involve continuing education? I personally receive hundreds of hours training a year to keep my certifications. The only certifications my department is required to pay for are the basic qualifications I needed for an entry level fire/medic. Those are Firefighter level II, Paramedic, Inspector. We have a small training budget (that shrinks every year with the bad economy).

I am not afraid to state who I work for fulltime. I hold the rank of Captain. My Chief has always been very careful with his budget and a reason we are surviving. We spend every taxpayers dollar cautiously as we can. My vendors hate dealing with me because I have always wrestled them to the best quote I can. Training we utilize free sources i.e. internet. I instruct classes for FREE on my own time, for my department. Our annual paramedic refreshers are the cheapest around. Our officers are all instructors and doing the teaching for free. Outside students are all only paying for books and supplies. The residents of my community have a department that is committed to giving them a quality service.

I would pay more for my taxes to have better service in my community. Unfortunately it is rural and does not have the tax base to support it. I pray I never have to use it. Everyone should educate themselves on their local responders. If you see a levy coming up don't just ask how much will it cost me. Ask what happens if it doesn't pass.

You might think closing a station is not a big deal until your child has a severe allergic reaction. That extra 5 minutes could literally be life or death. I pray that never happens to anyone.

I am not going to argue with anyone, nor will I change anyones mind. I have been very lucky I have got to make a career out of something I love to do. No two shifts are the same. I may only have 5 runs and get to be a part of a miracle and deliver a baby. I may have only one shift, and see a baby lost.

Facts are our jobs are 10% of the budget. They are trying to take from those that have taken concessions. Trying to abolish collective bargaining (and I'm non union) for public employees is not the answer. SB 5 is not a good long or short term option. To those that support us, thank you we will try our best to continue to do a good job. To those that don't support us we will continue to do the best we can with what we have. Because that is our job, you call, we respond. God Bless us all.

Sorry for the long winded rant.

[mustang8998]

You might think closing a station is not a big deal until your child has a severe allergic reaction. That extra 5 minutes could literally be life or death. I pray that never happens to anyone.



Dale, for starters, I AM NOT RAGGING ON YOU! This question is for all involved.

But, that statement, is the one I keep hearing. I have a problem with it.

If you are trying to keep personnel and stations, you have to make concessions (the way I understand it). So, in essence, the very people that we depend on, to protect/save/serve us, are willing to "let go" a certain percent of that service, just to maintain pay and perks? Do you see my point.

I said it earlier, in the thread and it received no response.


Now, I will speak to you, Dale. Some of the listed occupations, do have continuing education, or certification. It may not be as intensive, as your's, but it does take place.

I appreciate the jobs that you all do. However, I didn't force any one of you, to take on the job. I don't ever bad mouth anyones job and anyone that does that job. I do not support those, who whine about a job, though.

[fasthawk]

My job is 6th on the list and i dont complain about needing more as i offered to take a pay cut in these hard times. The promblem is people are tried of everyone needing more tax dollars. They need to spend more wisely. For what most police and fire, gov officals ect due for there pay check is a joke.Most of these people could not handle a honest days work.Every day on my job is training so that means i have 22 years of this.

[fastone]

Why are you asking me this question? If you thought I was being facetious, I was not. I was just wondering if what my family members have going for them was the norm. Of course I wouldn't want these workers to have minimum training.
I know that the schooling to become a FF/EMT/LEO is on the individual, just the same as it is if anyone wanted to get a degree to get into a certain line of work.

As to your question about using training for side work... I, along with the other 3.5 million commercial drivers cannot use my training or experience for side work legally. The DOT strictly and explicitly limits the amount of hours I am allowed to work under the authority of a carrier.

I appreciate, and respect what the majority of FF/EMT/LEO's do, and yes it has the potential to be dangerous, but none of those occupations are in the top 10 of most dangerous jobs in the U.S.
That being said, I do get tired of hearing from some, how they 'put their lives on the line' when there is a tax levy on the ballot.

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2010/08/20/business/economy/economix-20workerfatalities/economix-20workerfatalities-custom1.jpg


Nice chart but it is a little false. Compair the amount if time fishermen spend at sea fishing and how many die. Then compair that number to the amount of hours a fireman or cop spends in a hazardous area. There is no comparison. Yes I will say alot of fishermen or steel workers die doing there job, it's all a smoke and mirrors game. It's funny though, when people need firemen or police officers or public work employees for something, we are great, the rest of the time it's a bashing game. Thanks for everyone's support. Trust me, if they do away with union's rights, they will find a way to screw the private sector employee. More taxes on your employer or force another type of insurance on them. It will happen.

[fastone]

Got something interesting things for everyone too. Your elected officals. Do you know what benefits they get? State and nationally elected people, not your cities or counties. Those state and national positions get you a full retirement even if you are elected to that position one time. Could be as little as two years. Then you also get fully paid insurance. Everyone on here sounds like has, is, or is willing to take pay and benefit cuts to keep a job. But what about our elected officals???? They don't want to you know about there easy job.

[fasthawk]

Nice chart but it is a little false. Compair the amount if time fishermen spend at sea fishing and how many die. Then compair that number to the amount of hours a fireman or cop spends in a hazardous area. There is no comparison. Yes I will say alot of fishermen or steel workers die doing there job, it's all a smoke and mirrors game. It's funny though, when people need firemen or police officers or public work employees for something, we are great, the rest of the time it's a bashing game. Thanks for everyone's support. Trust me, if they do away with union's rights, they will find a way to screw the private sector employee. More taxes on your employer or force another type of insurance on them. It will happen.

I live in green township and cant remember the last time our firemen or a cop was in a dangerous situation for 8 hours a day 5 or 6 days a week so i would say your wrong on smoke and mirrors thing or you might be right on the smoke and mirrors thing depending on witch side you are on. I dont consider cleaning and maintaince of the fire truck dangerous. Yes i have had to call the fire dept twice, my welder was on fire in the back of my work truck with 20 gallons of gas and a oxygen and actylene tanks. Yes i put it out before they got there thank god because they pasted up my driveway with my wife standing out at the end of the driveway. The other was my dads bike caught fire in his garage and it took 5 fire extinguishers and 2nd degree burns on my arms and face but had it out and saved the garage before they got there

[fasthawk]

:
Got something interesting things for everyone too. Your elected officals. Do you know what benefits they get? State and nationally elected people, not your cities or counties. Those state and national positions get you a full retirement even if you are elected to that position one time. Could be as little as two years. Then you also get fully paid insurance. Everyone on here sounds like has, is, or is willing to take pay and benefit cuts to keep a job. But what about our elected officals???? They don't want to you know about there easy job.



Thats what most are trying to say.:bigthumb

[firestang70]

Dale, for starters, I AM NOT RAGGING ON YOU! This question is for all involved.

But, that statement, is the one I keep hearing. I have a problem with it.

If you are trying to keep personnel and stations, you have to make concessions (the way I understand it). So, in essence, the very people that we depend on, to protect/save/serve us, are willing to "let go" a certain percent of that service, just to maintain pay and perks? Do you see my point.

I said it earlier, in the thread and it received no response.


Now, I will speak to you, Dale. Some of the listed occupations, do have continuing education, or certification. It may not be as intensive, as your's, but it does take place.

I appreciate the jobs that you all do. However, I didn't force any one of you, to take on the job. I don't ever bad mouth anyones job and anyone that does that job. I do not support those, who whine about a job, though.

I take no offense to your response.I did not say that the other professions did not have CEUs to obtain, I asked how many. I have made concessions personally. I have higher percentage of insurance I pay every year. Also my insurance plans become less "attractive" every year. I have voluntarily done that every year to keep our staffing at current levels. So yes I have made concessions to keep the level of quality the same for the residents I protect.

We could have screamed loud enough to keep our benefits the same and reduce our staffing levels.
No one forced me to do this job. I love my job and do a good job at it as well. I never forced anyone to make their job choices either. People keep complaining we just need to spend less. I do not control what elected officials spend. I should but the system doesn't work that way. My department is working on a shoestring budget.

Fire departments historically are on the low end of the totem pole when it comes to local community priority.

Our Gov. gave himself and his staff a raise. He complains he needs to pay his staff more to entice quality private sector employees to work for him. HOW DOES THAT MAKE ANY SENSE. But now I need to make more concessions being a well qualified employee. The same guy that screwed retirees for 480 million in their pensions. He now wants to raid MY pension to fix holes that were caused by others. He will get a pension for LIFE, he will get healthcare for LIFE, he will get social security.

Firefighters are not eligible to receive social security for their full time employment. Firefighters get no health care insurance when they retire (not a single term election winner). Private sector employees pay 6% for social security, plus any 401 K investments from their employer. We will be paying from 10% now to 12.5% in the near future to combat economic woes.

Our salary and benefits are 10% of the budget. Do you really think that 10% has caused the issues at hand. To the levels that they are at. No they have not. Once they take collective bargaining away they can keep squeezing til there is nothing left.

I know I get sick of people saying we have no money left as they sip on their Starbucks and tweet about it on their latest and greatest smart phone. Sorry I am now spent and will be silent.

[mustang8998]

I know I get sick of people saying we have no money left as they sip on their Starbucks and tweet about it on their latest and greatest smart phone. Sorry I am now spent and will be silent.

While driving a 2011 5.0...........

Please!

[firestang70]

While driving a 2011 5.0...........

Please!
I also work 100 hours a week so I can drive one. Maybe if I had a private sector job I wouldn't have to work as much.:rolleyes: That was pretty lame sir.

[beefcake]

i talk to dale quite often, he is one of the few people i know that put in the kind of hours or more than i do.

[BigBadStang]

Nice chart but it is a little false. ...
How is it false? It simply states work related deaths per 100,000 workers, and total work related fatalities. I suppose if you wanted to split hairs and do a study on the time exposed to dangerous elements in the workplace, our gov't would probably fund it. But, unless you are in a major metro area like NYC, LA, or Chicago, I would garner that Emergency Services still wouldn't be in the top 5 on average.
Like someone else said, I respect the work that Emergency Services do. Hell, I have many family members and friends that work these jobs in some of the larger cities in the metro area, and know what they do and don't do.

I keep seeing posts about not being able to receive Social Security, but if I'm not mistaken, in Ohio, isn't it because they don't pay into the federal system? Instead, they pay into Ohio Public Employees Retirement System?

[mustang8998]

I also work 100 hours a week so I can drive one. Maybe if I had a private sector job I wouldn't have to work as much.:rolleyes: That was pretty lame sir.

Lame?

That's your choice. Again, no-one forced you into that job.

And you think less than 100 hrs a week would be better? I got news for you. You might not have any hours right now. And I, nor anyone I know, goes to Starbucks. I don't even have a personal cell phone. I do have a company phone, but I have limits on it.

I'll bet your retirement plan, is waaaaay better than mine and so is your insurance (I have to pay into mine, just like you).

The only common thing in this thread, I will agree with, is that the shit rolls down hill and the cuts need to start, at the top. But, to me, one of the "top", is the union. They are not hurting for money. If there are lay-offs, they will lose money, from the rank and file. Do the math. If you buy into it, well, enjoy the cool aid.

[mustang8998]

Instead, they pay into Ohio Public Employees Retirement System?

Yep, that's another one of their "problems".

The SSI system, wasn't good enough, for them.

[firestang70]

Lame?

That's your choice. Again, no-one forced you into that job.

And you think less than 100 hrs a week would be better? I got news for you. You might not have any hours right now. And I, nor anyone I know, goes to Starbucks. I don't even have a personal cell phone. I do have a company phone, but I have limits on it.

I'll bet your retirement plan, is waaaaay better than mine and so is your insurance (I have to pay into mine, just like you).

The only common thing in this thread, I will agree with, is that the shit rolls down hill and the cuts need to start, at the top. But, to me, one of the "top", is the union. They are not hurting for money. If there are lay-offs, they will lose money, from the rank and file. Do the math. If you buy into it, well, enjoy the cool aid.

Lame is mentioning what car I drive. WTF does that have to do with anything on this thread. NOTHING. I couldn't afford the car on my fulltime job. So I work more to have some nice things for me and my family. Just like anyone else would.

You stated before you weren't ragging on me. Now you are and that is lame. I answered your questions, that no one answered. I have made concessions to keep things better for my community and my "brothers". I am not a union member and I still can see the big picture.

You keep telling me your not forcing me to do anything. I'm not forcing you to look for a better job with better benefits. There are many out there. You willing to bet about retirements.Well it shouldn't be tough,my info is all public record. If you work so hard for your company and your retirement is that bad, maybe work harder to find that job. But remember no one is forcing you :D

[mustang8998]

Ah, come on Dale, Ya know I love ya man! LOL!

I never did rag on you. And your still saying that what I said, was lame. That is no argument.

I'd like for you to show me, the "many out there" jobs. I have been with my current employer, for 18 years. I'm not complaining. I make decent money, have had a raise every year (yes, every year, of at least 4%). I do contribute, to my insurance, but it is just for myself. I have 0 retirement. I have to try to take care of that, on my own. But, still, I'm not out protesting, about my poor retirement.

I guess what I'm trying to say, is we all have problems to deal with. I don't have the public stage, like the people opposing this issue. Then again, I AM the one, paying the checks of the ones, protesting.

You think you have it bad.....and so does the rest of the country.

Try talking to Maggie. She makes shit, as an LPN, has CEUs, insurance keeps taking more and can't even get back the 4% she gave back, two years ago. I'm just tired, of the public employees, thinking they are the only ones that life sucks!

Sorry if I hit a nerve.

[Blackballed]

While driving a 2011 5.0...........

Please! :confused:
__________________________________________________ _______________
The only common thing in this thread, I will agree with, is that the shit rolls down hill and the cuts need to start, at the top. But, to me, one of the "top", is the union. They are not hurting for money. If there are lay-offs, they will lose money, from the rank and file. Do the math. If you buy into it, well, enjoy the cool aid.

Sounds like someone is bitter about something..... Some low blows to ya Dale.... I know how many long 100+hrs/week you have being away from home to have nice shit for you and the fam. Aparently this guy thinks we are loaded with cash...:lol::lol::lol:

[Maximus]

Unions, Politicans, Bankers & Oil Execs (Not in any particular order) Those are the ones in charge and those are the ones Fucking up this country. (could/should throw lawyers in the mix aslo)How do I know this....Because whether we are in a Depression, Recession or Good times, these Fucks are still getting paid IN FULL. I dont see any pay cuts in their contracts.

[mustang8998]

Sounds like someone is bitter about something..... Some low blows to ya Dale.... I know how many long 100+hrs/week you have being away from home to have nice shit for you and the fam. Aparently this guy thinks we are loaded with cash...:lol::lol::lol:

Not at all!

It was a little jab at Dale, in fun. I'm not bitter at all, with him (and, I hope he knows that). He deserves what ever he wants.

I do the same, in my life and it is fair for him, to take a shot at me. I don't care.

Fire away!

[firestang70]

Ah, come on Dale, Ya know I love ya man! LOL!

I never did rag on you. And your still saying that what I said, was lame. That is no argument.

I'd like for you to show me, the "many out there" jobs. I have been with my current employer, for 18 years. I'm not complaining. I make decent money, have had a raise every year (yes, every year, of at least 4%). I do contribute, to my insurance, but it is just for myself. I have 0 retirement. I have to try to take care of that, on my own. But, still, I'm not out protesting, about my poor retirement.

I guess what I'm trying to say, is we all have problems to deal with. I don't have the public stage, like the people opposing this issue. Then again, I AM the one, paying the checks of the ones, protesting.

You think you have it bad.....and so does the rest of the country.

Try talking to Maggie. She makes shit, as an LPN, has CEUs, insurance keeps taking more and can't even get back the 4% she gave back, two years ago. I'm just tired, of the public employees, thinking they are the only ones that life sucks!

Sorry if I hit a nerve.

I never said I had it bad. I have it good. I'm the boss persay and I create a nice working environment. My guys/gals enjoy coming to work with me. It makes it nicer. I am actually in the process of going for a private sector job. The pay, benefits,pension is much more substantial that what I have now. If I get the job it will be bittersweet. I will be able to work one job and provide the current lifestyle my family has. I will get to see them more than 1.5 days a week. But I will dearly miss my fire family and the job that I have dreamed of. I hope most firefighters feel that way. There are perks to job and many cons that only those in the fire service would understand.

Maggie needs to go back to school. the pay difference between LPN and RN is substantial and many more opportunities. It will pay for itself in short time. The difference between RN and BSN is amazing.

I am thankful to have my job and my current benefits. I have actually read thru sb5. There is alot of crap there. More so than collective bargaining rights, thats just what the media is jumping on.

Oh and you mentioned the 5oh. Blow the dust off the Fox or the Mach and lets do a 40 roll yo.:)

[firestang70]

Sounds like someone is bitter about something..... Some low blows to ya Dale.... I know how many long 100+hrs/week you have being away from home to have nice shit for you and the fam. Aparently this guy thinks we are loaded with cash...:lol::lol::lol:
He's not bitter, he's just jealous because he wants to drive the big red truck:lol: I am loaded. I secretly won the Powerball, I like working those hours, it builds character.

[BigBadStang]

Unions, Politicans, Bankers & Oil Execs (Not in any particular order) Those are the ones in charge and those are the ones Fucking up this country. (could/should throw lawyers in the mix aslo)How do I know this....Because whether we are in a Depression, Recession or Good times, these Fucks are still getting paid IN FULL. I dont see any pay cuts in their contracts.

Damn, Craig, you forgot one...
:AR15: Insurance Companies!

[DSSKing68]

Unions suck...get over it. There was a time and place for them, and it really doesn't exist in today's world.

[89notch]

Unions suck...get over it. There was a time and place for them, and it really doesn't exist in today's world.

It had a place back in the day when employers didn't provide a decent wage or benefits?


Oh wait thats happening right now.

[fastone]

How is it false? It simply states work related deaths per 100,000 workers, and total work related fatalities. I suppose if you wanted to split hairs and do a study on the time exposed to dangerous elements in the workplace, our gov't would probably fund it. But, unless you are in a major metro area like NYC, LA, or Chicago, I would garner that Emergency Services still wouldn't be in the top 5 on average.
Like someone else said, I respect the work that Emergency Services do. Hell, I have many family members and friends that work these jobs in some of the larger cities in the metro area, and know what they do and don't do.

I keep seeing posts about not being able to receive Social Security, but if I'm not mistaken, in Ohio, isn't it because they don't pay into the federal system? Instead, they pay into Ohio Public Employees Retirement System?

For the first thing, I have a jail in my district. I will not name the district, but we cover the Boone Cty Jail. So now you can figure out on your own if you want. But the jail is one of the few around that houses alot of federal prisoners. Most people think around here we don't put ourselves in dangerous spots. I have transported people have murdered others or other times been told by Boone County Deputies that followed us to the hospital, if someone pulls out in front of you, don't stop, hit them and keep going. How would you live to hear that while transporting a patient? Plus the jail hardly ever tells you what they are in for. Or going into a spot with 30+ inmates around you with about 3 or 4 unarmed gaurds?

As for the SS retirement, if you are in a state approved retirement you can collect SS but if you were schedule to get at retirememt 1000 a month. Since you already have a retirement the most your check will be is under 200 a month. So most fire and police have filled out the paperwork to not have to pay SS retirement. But I'm in KY, my retirement is 8% a check, my employer is putting in I can't remember it's 32-38% more starting in July of this year. It's only 28% right now.

[fastone]

Ah, come on Dale, Ya know I love ya man! LOL!

I never did rag on you. And your still saying that what I said, was lame. That is no argument.

I'd like for you to show me, the "many out there" jobs. I have been with my current employer, for 18 years. I'm not complaining. I make decent money, have had a raise every year (yes, every year, of at least 4%). I do contribute, to my insurance, but it is just for myself. I have 0 retirement. I have to try to take care of that, on my own. But, still, I'm not out protesting, about my poor retirement.

I guess what I'm trying to say, is we all have problems to deal with. I don't have the public stage, like the people opposing this issue. Then again, I AM the one, paying the checks of the ones, protesting.

You think you have it bad.....and so does the rest of the country.

Try talking to Maggie. She makes shit, as an LPN, has CEUs, insurance keeps taking more and can't even get back the 4% she gave back, two years ago. I'm just tired, of the public employees, thinking they are the only ones that life sucks!

Sorry if I hit a nerve.

I want to ask you this. I see you don't have a retirement. But lets go back to before you had a job 18 years ago. If you became a full time fireman and got a contract for your wages and such, also told this is what your retirement will be, god be with you if it happens but if you die in the line of duty this is what your family gets. Then 18 years later they want to take that away? It is in all contracts for fire and police we can't strike, we don't ask for much just to keep some of the benefits we had and were promised.

And I'm not picking on you, just trying to help you see it from there side.

[fastone]

I would also like to quote this, it is from Professor Robert Bruno. He is director of the Labor Education Program at the University fo Illinois.

"When you attack the labor movement, you are really attacking America's entire working class. You are making it harder for all workers, not just union members, to benefit from the gains of the labor movement. That is why Democrats have become less responsive to labor and the GOP has become downright hostile to labor."

[ADaughen]

I'm private sector, non-union and this is bad. I thought it was primarily about Collective Bargaining, but there is more to it.

I have friends and family that are LEO and teachers from multiple districts, so this is pretty close to home.


-Dropping all teachers' wages to flat rate, neglecting education and time in job.
-Increasing the retirement age of teachers from 30 to 35 years or age 60; whichever comes first.
-Revoking sick time for teachers. (Do you know how many nasty bugs teachers get from students?)
-Anyone with a Bachelors can teach your kids. (I do not think a 2nd grade teacher needs a Master's degree, but they should have their early ed training and certs)
-Teachers will get raises based on their student's performance compared against a State average. (It doesn't matter if you have a bad district that gets 50% and you raised them to 70%. If you are below the State average, you won't get a raise.)
-Police under the rank of Sargent are to have their pay cut to $15/hr. (Who wants to work OTR for $15/hr?!?)



There was a lot of other stuff covered last weekend during a heated discussion, but that is what I could remember.


Yes, I took a pay freeze for three years.
Yes, I changed jobs at a pay cut.
Fortunately neither company I was with had lay offs.




We are 8 Billion in the red, but hitting the service sector like this will not be good in the long run (crime/fire&rescue/education).

[fastone]

The national senators and congressmen are watching all the union bashing/union braking states closely. Because depending on the out come the feds may vote to allow states to file for bankruptcy. Now killing unions will not have much effect on private jobs, but if your states files for bankruptcy, what in the hell do you think that will do to your job and everything else? If you think it will not, then you are a RETARD. That alone will close more private businesses than you can shake a stick at. Also if the public employees retirement is privatized like some want, it falls into the hands of those on Wall Street. The ones that have screwed up everything with the finances of this country the last few years. We would be better off living in Mexico if that happens. Senate bill 5 in Ohio, the stuff in Wis. is all small stepping stones. Things need to change but allowing working people to get there rights taken away and messed with is wrong. Then when you look at your elected officals, national congress and senators make over 6 figures a year. Get elected once and you get a big nice retirement and insurance. I don't hear them wanting to offer pay cuts. If you don't believe this look around on the internet or send an email to your elected offical and ask them what they make and their retirement information. That is an email you will never get a reply from. Trust me, I have tried.

[05yellowgt]

Questions,

Is Issue 5 in Ohio retaining collective bargining for wages and cutting it for benefits like Wisconsin? Also, is this measure mainly affecting unions other than FD, EMT, and PD like the Wisconsin bill?

Increased insurance costs aren't new for anyone, in the private or public sector. Right now I am paying
$256/pay period for health insurance premiums x26
$236/pay period to put money in my HSA x26
$6000 deductible per year (which I reach every year)
and then I have to go to a tiered prescription plan for an additional $2000 till I reach my out of pocket limit.

$13,000 just to provide basic health care for my family and that doesn't even count prescriptions. Now all of this is partly because of working at a small company of <75 employees and we were also hit with a 25% increase in insurance costs this year vs last. We also don't have any sort of 401k through work or any other type of retirement benefits. I don't have a requirement to go out and obtain and maintain certifications for my field of work, but if I don't I can't stay relevant and valuable enough to my employer to keep me around.


If you notice, one of the core issues that is causing the turmoil in both Ohio and Wisconsin is health care benefits. I thought Obama care was supposed to fix all of this???:rolleyes:

[skeptiq]

Things need to change but allowing working people to get there rights taken away and messed with is wrong.

What "rights" are being taken away?

[05yellowgt]

What "rights" are being taken away?
The right to threaten to not work unless the employer gives you what you want? Just checked my pocket Constitution and can't find that line.

[Turd]

The right to threaten to not work unless the employer gives you what you want? Just checked my pocket Constitution and can't find that line.

In other words your pocket constitution doesn't cover the 1st Amendment?

The First Amendment (Amendment I) to the United States Constitution is part of the Bill of Rights. The amendment prohibits the making of any law "respecting an establishment of religion", impeding the free exercise of religion, infringing on the freedom of speech, infringing on the freedom of the press, interfering with the right to peaceably assemble or prohibiting the petitioning for a governmental redress of grievances.


Or are you making an argument based on the fact the constitution doesn't specifically say "unions", and are trying to convince people that those rights aren't already protected?

Using the reverse of that logic, one could say that it's not illegal to burn down your neighbors house so long as you ignite the fire by shooting laser beams from your eyes. Because even though arson is illegal, shooting laser beams from your eyes is not specifically covered.

[05yellowgt]

In other words your pocket constitution doesn't cover the 1st Amendment?

The First Amendment (Amendment I) to the United States Constitution is part of the Bill of Rights. The amendment prohibits the making of any law "respecting an establishment of religion", impeding the free exercise of religion, infringing on the freedom of speech, infringing on the freedom of the press, interfering with the right to peaceably assemble or prohibiting the petitioning for a governmental redress of grievances.


Or are you making an argument based on the fact the constitution doesn't specifically say "unions", and are trying to convince people that those rights aren't already protected?

Using the reverse of that logic, one could say that it's not illegal to burn down your neighbors house so long as you ignite the fire by shooting laser beams from your eyes. Because even though arson is illegal, shooting laser beams from your eyes is not specifically covered.
Are you saying that the first amendment gives people the right to strike and not go to work? I'm not following you at all. I agree that you have the right to peaceably assemble, but in no way shape or form does that mean that you can't be fired for it because you didn't show up to work.

[skeptiq]

Using the reverse of that logic, one could say that it's not illegal to burn down your neighbors house so long as you ignite the fire by shooting laser beams from your eyes. Because even though arson is illegal, shooting laser beams from your eyes is not specifically covered.


Definition of arson: The crime of maliciously, voluntarily, and willfully setting fire to the building, buildings, or other property of another or of burning one's own property for an improper purpose, as to collect insurance.

As the definition shows, the method of starting the fire is not what defines arson...

I just want to know what "right" is being taken away. I keep hearing that Wisconsin and Ohio are taking away rights, but have yet to see anyone show or say exactly what "right" is being taken away / violated.

[Turd]

Are you saying that the first amendment gives people the right to strike and not go to work? I'm not following you at all. I agree that you have the right to peaceably assemble, but in no way shape or form does that mean that you can't be fired for it because you didn't show up to work.

You're implication is that its not protected because it doesn't say it's protected. But you're invalidating your own point. The flip side of that is that the constitution doesn't specifically ban it either.

It's pretty clear that the power of the union comes from the collective. I have the right as an American citizen to decide that I'm not going to work in protest of unfair labor, unsafe conditions etc. By myself, I'm not a threat, I can't change those conditions. Unified, as part of a collective I can bring about change. THAT is why unions are necessary and are a cornerstone of American democratic beliefs. This law, seeks to remove the right of the collective and thus strips the power from the individual.

Look into the history of Nazi Germany, one of the first steps that Hitler took in 1933 was to eliminate trade/labor unions and ban them from protesting. The right of people to band together is a fundamental democratic concept, removing that right is a fascist concept.

[04 Venom]

Are you saying that the first amendment gives people the right to strike and not go to work? I'm not following you at all. I agree that you have the right to peaceably assemble, but in no way shape or form does that mean that you can't be fired for it because you didn't show up to work.

The National Labor Relations Act guarantees the right to strike for private sector employees.

[BigBadStang]

Are you saying that the first amendment gives people the right to strike and not go to work? I'm not following you at all. I agree that you have the right to peaceably assemble, but in no way shape or form does that mean that you can't be fired for it because you didn't show up to work.

So, where does a 'Lock Out' fit into the scheme?

[fastone]

The right to threaten to not work unless the employer gives you what you want? Just checked my pocket Constitution and can't find that line.

Everyone needs to understand, police and fire can not strike. That is the contract that every department I know has. So we can not say give us this or we don't work. Also if it gets to an impass being the employees/employer an outside person comes in and compairs everything. What they say is final.

[fastone]

Plus this has been eating at me for a few days. The other reason that report is off, it only shows line of duty deaths for their report. It doesn't include the firemen that come down with cancer after years of working. Those cancers that are tied back directly to what we had to deal with day in and day out with house fires, car fires, and haz mat runs to name a few. I know lots of people get cancer, but you will be hard to find another job that people end up with cancer at.

[05yellowgt]

You're implication is that its not protected because it doesn't say it's protected. But you're invalidating your own point. The flip side of that is that the constitution doesn't specifically ban it either.

It's pretty clear that the power of the union comes from the collective. I have the right as an American citizen to decide that I'm not going to work in protest of unfair labor, unsafe conditions etc. By myself, I'm not a threat, I can't change those conditions. Unified, as part of a collective I can bring about change. THAT is why unions are necessary and are a cornerstone of American democratic beliefs. This law, seeks to remove the right of the collective and thus strips the power from the individual.

Look into the history of Nazi Germany, one of the first steps that Hitler took in 1933 was to eliminate trade/labor unions and ban them from protesting. The right of people to band together is a fundamental democratic concept, removing that right is a fascist concept.
I'm implicating that the 1st Amendment has NOTHING to do with this argument. The 1st Amendment has nothing to do with labor laws. You are incorrectly lumping the 1st Amendment into this discussion because I think you mistook me for meaning that workers shouldn't be able to picket or protest. I wasn't challenging that. I was challenging the ability for them to protest and walk out of their jobs without any repercussions. Any non union worker would be fired on the spot for dereliction of duty, unexcused absence, or some other legit reason. This is a mute point for our police, fire, and EMT friends because they aren't allowed to strike as the current laws stand today. Teachers can strike all they want during the summer, but they shouldn't be allowed to take "sick days" in mass to go protest and leave the schools deserted.


The National Labor Relations Act guarantees the right to strike for private sector employees. This is accurate, however Government workers are not part of the private sector. Issue 5 only deals with public sector workers (police, fire, EMT, teachers, and other government positions).


So, where does a 'Lock Out' fit into the scheme? That is a private sector issue. I don't believe that Government can lock out workers unless you count government shut downs because of budget issues.


Everyone needs to understand, police and fire can not strike. That is the contract that every department I know has. So we can not say give us this or we don't work. Also if it gets to an impass being the employees/employer an outside person comes in and compairs everything. What they say is final.I was going to bring this up when I got back from lunch. My question that I haven't seen an answer to yet is if Issue 5 has the same exception for collective bargaining for Police, Fire and EMT's as the Wisconsin bill?





I can't say I am against unions per say to be totally honest. I owe my upbringing to my Dad's 42 years at the GM plant in Moraine. I always had a roof over my head, food to eat, and didn't really feel like I ever wanted for anything. I just have a hard time rationalizing these days how union members should somehow be entitled to better and cheaper benefits than non-union workers. Allowing businesses to pool together to negotiate lower rates, or even dare I say public option would really make many of these arguments go away as it would drive down the cost of care instead of the exact opposite that is happening now thanks to Obamacare.

[fasthawk]

Plus this has been eating at me for a few days. The other reason that report is off, it only shows line of duty deaths for their report. It doesn't include the firemen that come down with cancer after years of working. Those cancers that are tied back directly to what we had to deal with day in and day out with house fires, car fires, and haz mat runs to name a few. I know lots of people get cancer, but you will be hard to find another job that people end up with cancer at.



Welding day in and out , at least fireman have oxygen tanks on there backs.

[05yellowgt]

Let us not take away from the real dangers that fire fighters go through in just about every call they are dispatched on. While it is true that not ever single moment in an officers day is absolutely chock full of peril, a fire fighters is on just about every dispatch.

[Turd]

I'm implicating that the 1st Amendment has NOTHING to do with this argument. The 1st Amendment has nothing to do with labor laws. You are incorrectly lumping the 1st Amendment into this discussion because I think you mistook me for meaning that workers shouldn't be able to picket or protest. I wasn't challenging that. I was challenging the ability for them to protest and walk out of their jobs without any repercussions. Any non union worker would be fired on the spot for dereliction of duty, unexcused absence, or some other legit reason. This is a mute point for our police, fire, and EMT friends because they aren't allowed to strike as the current laws stand today. Teachers can strike all they want during the summer, but they shouldn't be allowed to take "sick days" in mass to go protest and leave the schools deserted.


You realize that what protects these people from individual repercussions is the very fact that they are allowed to act as one collective group, right? And that if they can't band together to protect themselves from those possible repercussions then you are essentially stripping them of the right. By saying that teachers should only be able to strike in the summer, when there is no impact, that's like the government saying, Oh, hey you can own a gun, but we're going to make it illegal to possess ammunition.

[05yellowgt]

You realize that what protects these people from individual repercussions is the very fact that they are allowed to act as one collective group, right? And that if they can't band together to protect themselves from those possible repercussions then you are essentially stripping them of the right. By saying that teachers should only be able to strike in the summer, when there is no impact, that's like the government saying, Oh, hey you can own a gun, but we're going to make it illegal to possess ammunition.
The Freedom of Assembly gives you the right to do just that, assemble. It doesn't give you the right to desert your job in the process. There IS a law that allows for it but it is NOT the 1st Amendment. All I am trying to tell you is that you are incorrectly quoting the 1st Amendment.

It is like me standing on a street corner talking about my right to bear arms
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_REkgXByDyuU/S6dfWNoMZQI/AAAAAAAAGi4/HrKCvTJRxc8/s400/bear+arms.jpg

[04 Venom]

The Freedom of Assembly gives you the right to do just that, assemble. It doesn't give you the right to desert your job in the process. There IS a law that allows for it but it is NOT the 1st Amendment. All I am trying to tell you is that you are incorrectly quoting the 1st Amendment.
[/IMG]

Well that is not exactly true, since the Supreme Court has held that the right of free speech includes the right of association--to join groups of like-minded individuals.

[05yellowgt]

So if my co-workers (who are non union) and I all walk out at noon tomorrow, then we can't be fired because of the 1st Amendment???

[fastone]

You two are killing me talking about walking out and striking. Police and Fire can't do that. Now teachers can I believe. Cops can have the blue flu I think it is what it is called. But I have not heard of any mass call in sick for firemen. Could be wrong, Im sure if it happened it would make the news. I have heard of cops doing blue flu just not heard of it in years.

[04 Venom]

So if my co-workers (who are non union) and I all walk out at noon tomorrow, then we can't be fired because of the 1st Amendment???

You are mixing your metaphors. You postulated that the first amendment had nothing to do with labor unions because referenced the right of assembly.

Now to your second point, if you are a private sector employee (I don't know if you are or are not) and the employees of your company (assuming your are not an independent contrator, agricultural employee or some other excluded category) walk out as a group to protest their pay or working conditions, your employer CANNOT fire you. Your employer can hire permanent replacement employees while you are on strike. Once employees make an offer to return to work, the employer has to reinstate any employees who were not replaced and offer striking employees their jobs as replacement employees quit or are fired.

If, on the other hand, the employer violates federal labor laws and employees strike in response to those unfair labor practices, the employer may only hire temporary replacement employees and must give striking employees ther jobs back when they end the strike.

[WARMACHINE]

You know what kills me is people think that us in civil service have it so good, since i've had my job i've seen 4 people quit and go back to their old jobs.And everyone thinks we got the city by the balls, that's a joke , it's a contract that we have to follow to the letter, they got us by the balls. And what about the language in sb5 about anyone doing work for the government can't seek a prevailing wage? This will reach out beyond the "union workers" it's just the start. It has to be stopped!

[Turd]

The Freedom of Assembly gives you the right to do just that, assemble. It doesn't give you the right to desert your job in the process. There IS a law that allows for it but it is NOT the 1st Amendment. All I am trying to tell you is that you are incorrectly quoting the 1st Amendment.

It is like me standing on a street corner talking about my right to bear arms
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_REkgXByDyuU/S6dfWNoMZQI/AAAAAAAAGi4/HrKCvTJRxc8/s400/bear+arms.jpg


First of all you're trying to argue semantics, even though I've repeatedly clarified the point I was making. Your initial point:


The right to threaten to not work unless the employer gives you what you want? Just checked my pocket Constitution and can't find that line.


Your entire argument to this point has been based on the fact something isn't explicitly written the way that you describe it, therefore it must not exist. In other words, you know exactly what I mean, and how my point is relevant, but rather than address the facts you want to argue the semantics around the issue, which have nothing to do with the issue itself. This is the same false logic argument conservatives use about climate change theory, "OMG it's snowing, so much for global warming LOLs ROFLCOPTERS!!"

:lol:

['92Stang]

fggfhgfgfhsgfgsdgsfgshfshsghfhhhsdgffgfyfhsghhfgfd bhdgfhhdghdggfgfdgfvgdfvhbvcbvvbbvhjcbvcvcbccbcvcb vbvbncvbvfvbbvcvbnbvhgyrgfufyfgdgfgyrgffgtfgfrghgt yrfvftgfgdyfufdgccctfrfgdgf ffdggdfgdvf hfg fhjdhjdv b n vh

['92Stang]

I LovE you daddy.

['92Stang]

fggfhgfgfhsgfgsdgsfgshfshsghfhhhsdgffgfyfhsghhfgfd bhdgfhhdghdggfgfdgfvgdfvhbvcbvvbbvhjcbvcvcbccbcvcb vbvbncvbvfvbbvcvbnbvhgyrgfufyfgdgfgyrgffgtfgfrghgt yrfvftgfgdyfufdgccctfrfgdgf ffdggdfgdvf hfg fhjdhjdv b n vh
Sorry Fellas. My 7 year old has her own laptop, and found the site...:o I just walked in, and she said "look Daddy I wrote I love you, next to your car..lol.

I LovE you daddy.

I Love you too Abby!!:D

[04 Venom]

No apology necessary 92Stang. Your daughter makes more sense than some of the other posts here. :bigthumb

[05yellowgt]

Let's take this one step at a time.


1)Skeptiq asks what rights are taken away.


2)I reply (mostly jokingly) that there isn't a provision in the Constitution that covers labor strikes


3)Turd replies that the First Amendment covers strikes because the First Amendment allows for freedom of assembly and the right to peaceably assemble and to petition the government


4) I state that the 1st Amendment does not in fact have anything to do with labor laws other than being able to protest or picket and I question what part of the 1st Amendment gives a person, persons the right to desert their jobs in order to conduct said protesting or picketing.


5)04 venom states that the National Labor Relations Act is what gives the right to strike.
This plus the Labor-Management Relations Act are what cover most of today's labor laws on the Federal level with additional Laws that have been enacted by various states. Executive order 10988 enacted by President Kennedy is what began collective bargaining on the Federal level.

Neither of the above laws or the Executive Order are part of the Constitution, which was the basis of my first statement as well as the premise of my entire discussion of how the 1st Amendment had little to do with the topic.


5)04Venom States that the Supreme Court has ruled and maintained that the First Amendment maintains the right of like minded individuals to join in groups

6) I reply asking that if my non-union co-workers and I walk off the Job tomorrow that the first Amendment will protect our Jobs
I work in the private sector for a Video Conference Management Provider which do not fall under any of the special excluded categories.

7) 04 Venom Replies that if my co-workers and I strike at work to protest wages, or working conditions we cannot be fired and in addition if a Federal Labor law is violated we also cannot be fired.
In addition if we were a union we would have to give at least 60 days notice prior to striking if our labor agreement had not yet expired, and could strike at any time without notice if the labor agreement had expired. I'm not sure if any of the above would apply unless the very act of a walk out constitutes the creation of a Labor Union on our parts.

So this may mean that the teachers in Wisconsin may be subject to termination if it can be proved in court that an organized plan was formed by the teachers to all call in "sick" and show up at the capital to protest the proposed legislation. Their labor contract has not expired and they didn't give 60 day written notice.


8)Turd responds that I am arguing semantics and am using "conservative" false logic
I'm not arguing semantics here at all. The only "conservative" logic I am using is knowing what is part of the Constitution and what is not.

[BigBadStang]

Plus this has been eating at me for a few days. The other reason that report is off, it only shows line of duty deaths for their report. It doesn't include the firemen that come down with cancer after years of working. Those cancers that are tied back directly to what we had to deal with day in and day out with house fires, car fires, and haz mat runs to name a few. I know lots of people get cancer, but you will be hard to find another job that people end up with cancer at.

OK, if it's been bothering you that much, you win. You have the most dangerous career in the world, get the most cancer and illnesses of any other and get shit on the most. :)


On a side note, what are the initial thoughts of this bill having an impact on the size and frequency of property tax levies hitting the ballots?

[Maximus]

No apology necessary 92Stang. Your daughter makes more sense than some of the other posts here. :bigthumb

Funny!!:bigthumb


Let's take this one step at a time.









This plus the Labor-Management Relations Act are what cover most of today's labor laws on the Federal level with additional Laws that have been enacted by various states. Executive order 10988 enacted by President Kennedy is what began collective bargaining on the Federal level.

Neither of the above laws or the Executive Order are part of the Constitution, which was the basis of my first statement as well as the premise of my entire discussion of how the 1st Amendment had little to do with the topic.



I work in the private sector for a Video Conference Management Provider which do not fall under any of the special excluded categories.

In addition if we were a union we would have to give at least 60 days notice prior to striking if our labor agreement had not yet expired, and could strike at any time without notice if the labor agreement had expired. I'm not sure if any of the above would apply unless the very act of a walk out constitutes the creation of a Labor Union on our parts.

So this may mean that the teachers in Wisconsin may be subject to termination if it can be proved in court that an organized plan was formed by the teachers to all call in "sick" and show up at the capital to protest the proposed legislation. Their labor contract has not expired and they didn't give 60 day written notice.


I'm not arguing semantics here at all. The only "conservative" logic I am using is knowing what is part of the Constitution and what is not.

You typed all that (which I did not read) in order to argue with Liberals. DUMBASS!! You can be right in everyway, but a Liberal will never agree nor admitt that they are wrong.

just sayin:angel:

[05yellowgt]

I tend to have a lot of time on my hands while it is my shift with the twins. They still aren't sleeping more than 2 hours between feedings and we aren't putting them in there cribs yet when they do sleep.

[Maximus]

I tend to have a lot of time on my hands while it is my shift with the twins. They still aren't sleeping more than 2 hours between feedings and we aren't putting them in there cribs yet when they do sleep.

THANK GOD I can only imagine having Twins!! :lol:

NOW while its quiet, go figure that minimal posting before selling shit thing.:bigthumb

[04 Venom]

The thrust of SB 5 is very simple; it is punishing your enemies. It is a raw exercise of political power. Organized labor backed Strickland to the hilt and Kasich and the Republicans are doing their best to hamper a major source of funds for the Democratic Party in Ohio. It is not about saving money; the state has ample power to do that without outlawing the right to bargain. It is simply union busting and attempting to shift the blame for the imprudent choices made by prior governors and legislatures.

So let me pose this scenario. You are working for ABC Delivery and the owner gives employees a 10% raise each year. Are you going to reject the raise on the basis that it may injure the long term financial health of the company? How many of you have done that?

[DSSKing68]

Funny!!:bigthumb



You typed all that (which I did not read) in order to argue with Liberals. DUMBASS!! You can be right in everyway, but a Liberal will never agree nor admitt that they are wrong.

just sayin:angel:


Ding-ding-Ding..you win the prize! :D

+1

[05yellowgt]

The thrust of SB 5 is very simple; it is punishing your enemies. It is a raw exercise of political power. Organized labor backed Strickland to the hilt and Kasich and the Republicans are doing their best to hamper a major source of funds for the Democratic Party in Ohio. It is not about saving money; the state has ample power to do that without outlawing the right to bargain. It is simply union busting and attempting to shift the blame for the imprudent choices made by prior governors and legislatures.

So let me pose this scenario. You are working for ABC Delivery and the owner gives employees a 10% raise each year. Are you going to reject the raise on the basis that it may injure the long term financial health of the company? How many of you have done that?
I've turned down pay increases, as have nearly all of my co-workers, for 4 of the last 6 years at my company to avoid being laid off, having to be furlowed, or worse seeing the company go under. We service mostly Fortune 500 companies and when the economy went down the shitter we got hit HARD as a result. We lost 4 MAJOR accounts on January 1, 2009. ALL of the accounts we lost were due to companies tightening their belts and taking their video services internal instead of paying for an external service. All but essential personnel were asked to take their vacation days instead of coming into work. Some folks had 160+ hours and others at the end of their vacation time were laid off untill things got better and were brought back.

We were lucky that in the economic downturn, video conferencing was seen as a money saving venture as a replacement for travel by corporations and to have it run smoothly you need a group of specialized technicians and engineers to really do things right and keep the end users happy. We were able to scrape by as we replaced the large accounts with several smaller deals and the company brought back all but one or two of those who were laid off.

[Turd]

Let's take this one step at a time.

I'm not arguing semantics here at all. The only "conservative" logic I am using is knowing what is part of the Constitution and what is not.


Yes, you are arguing semantics and here's why:

Q: What are the components of a strike?

A: People exercising their right to assemble, their right to protest and exercising their right to free speech.

So in other words almost every aspect of the First Amendment is represented by a labor strike, yet you somehow are convinced that the First Amendment has nothing to do with it? That's hysterical.

[Turd]

Haha, BTW to all the conservatives out there. If you agree with the government making laws like this. Laws that give them power and take it away from the people, then you have no idea what it means to be a conservative. This falls under the "big government" agenda that true conservatives are against.

[skeptiq]

From Dictionary.com:


Strike
42. (of a union or union member)
a. to declare or engage in a suspension of (work) until an employer grants certain demands, such as pay increases, an improved pension plan, etc.
b. to declare or engage in a suspension of work against (a factory, employer, industry, etc.) until certain demands are met.

What is Freedom of Assembly:

The right to peaceably assemble and to petition the government for redress of grievances; guaranteed by the First Amendment to the US Constitution

As a side note, it pretty much means when the gov't is overstepping, the people have a right to (peacefully) assemble and seek change without fear of being incarcerated, killed, etc.

While a strike is an assembly of people, it's an assembly against an employer NOT the gov't.

[05yellowgt]

Yes, you are arguing semantics and here's why:

Q: What are the components of a strike?

A: People exercising their right to assemble, their right to protest and exercising their right to free speech.

So in other words almost every aspect of the First Amendment is represented by a labor strike, yet you somehow are convinced that the First Amendment has nothing to do with it? That's hysterical.
You are the one that is arguing the semantics. Find me a single case where any high court has sited the 1st Amendment as a validation for a labor strike. Then go and look at cases involving the above mentioned laws (which none of the above are articles of the Constitution, or Amendments) and see how many court cases involve them. A strike does not mean you have to assemble or protest. A strike can mean you just don't go into work. I agree, and have agreed this entire time that picketing if done peacefully and not impeding others (like preventing a worker from entering the work place by crossing the picket line) is legal can can be interpereted as part of the 1st Amendment. That is the absolutely smallest part of a strike.

I'll repeat again because you keep leaving it out, that 1st Ammendment and for that matter the entire Constution has NOTHING to do with collective bargaining, unions, or the "right" to strike, or conduct a walk out. Those aspects are ALL covered under either Federal laws, State laws, or Executive Orders which are not part of the Constitution because they were not passed by a 2/3 majority by both the House and Senate, they were not passed along to the states to be voted on to recieve at least 75% approval by state legislatures by at least a 2/3rds margin, nor have they even gone through the process to be added to the Constituation.

[05yellowgt]

Haha, BTW to all the conservatives out there. If you agree with the government making laws like this. Laws that give them power and take it away from the people, then you have no idea what it means to be a conservative. This falls under the "big government" agenda that true conservatives are against.
I don't even like conservatives of today. Today's democrats are equivilant to the 1950's Communists. Today's Republicans are mostly the 1950's Democrats. Today's Libertarians are 1950's Republicans. JFK would be a Republican if he were alive today.

[04 Venom]

I don't even like conservatives of today. Today's democrats are equivilant to the 1950's Communists. Today's Republicans are mostly the 1950's Democrats. Today's Libertarians are 1950's Republicans. JFK would be a Republican if he were alive today.

That's absurd.

[Turd]

You are the one that is arguing the semantics. Find me a single case where any high court has sited the 1st Amendment as a validation for a labor strike. Then go and look at cases involving the above mentioned laws (which none of the above are articles of the Constitution, or Amendments) and see how many court cases involve them. A strike does not mean you have to assemble or protest. A strike can mean you just don't go into work. I agree, and have agreed this entire time that picketing if done peacefully and not impeding others (like preventing a worker from entering the work place by crossing the picket line) is legal can can be interpereted as part of the 1st Amendment. That is the absolutely smallest part of a strike.

I'll repeat again because you keep leaving it out, that 1st Ammendment and for that matter the entire Constution has NOTHING to do with collective bargaining, unions, or the "right" to strike, or conduct a walk out. Those aspects are ALL covered under either Federal laws, State laws, or Executive Orders which are not part of the Constitution because they were not passed by a 2/3 majority by both the House and Senate, they were not passed along to the states to be voted on to recieve at least 75% approval by state legislatures by at least a 2/3rds margin, nor have they even gone through the process to be added to the Constituation.


Holy Christ. Here we go, back to the "if it doesn't show up here then it doesn't exist" argument. First of all in order for there to be a Supreme Court case regarding this issue there would be a need to challenge it. But no one has done so because the actions Americans take during a strike are so obviously protected by the First Amendment. It would be like the Supreme Court agreeing to hear a case that proves the sun rises in the East.

But using your argument, the fact that the right to strike and organize a labor union is protected under other labor and trade laws that have NOT been struck down by the Supreme Court means that by the very fact they exist, they are constitutional. I'm not quite sure how you don't see that.

[Turd]

I don't even like conservatives of today. Today's democrats are equivilant to the 1950's Communists. Today's Republicans are mostly the 1950's Democrats. Today's Libertarians are 1950's Republicans. JFK would be a Republican if he were alive today.

:lol:

You've got to be kidding me.

If anything, the modern GOP are like 1940's fascists.

[05yellowgt]

How so? The entire policital climate has been moving to more progressive and left leaning policy's since the Great Depression. Just compare the voting records from decade to decade of those belonging to each polical group and you will see the evidence. It's easy to find.

[05yellowgt]

Holy Christ. Here we go, back to the "if it doesn't show up here then it doesn't exist" argument. First of all in order for there to be a Supreme Court case regarding this issue there would be a need to challenge it. But no one has done so because the actions Americans take during a strike are so obviously protected by the First Amendment. It would be like the Supreme Court agreeing to hear a case that proves the sun rises in the East.

But using your argument, the fact that the right to strike and organize a labor union is protected under other labor and trade laws that have NOT been struck down by the Supreme Court means that by the very fact they exist, they are constitutional. I'm not quite sure how you don't see that.There hasn't been a challenge because no one believes the 1st Amendment has anything to do with it. Constitutional does not equal IN THE CONSITUTION. All Constitutional means is that it doesn't violate an article or Amendment of said constitution.

[Turd]

There hasn't been a challenge because no one believes the 1st Amendment has anything to do with it. Constitutional does not equal IN THE CONSITUTION. All Constitutional means is that it doesn't violate an article or Amendment of said constitution.

This might be the single most ridiculous thing posted in the history of the internet.

:lol:

[BigBadStang]

:bangwall:

Off topic but...LMFAO at that Hulk Hogan signature .gif!!

[skeptiq]

Pretty sure the reason there aren't any SC cases challenging strikes as a violation of the Freedom of Assmebly clause in the First Amendment is because the Taft-Hartley Act (1947), which ammended NLRA, is already federal law that lays out what unions have to do in order to strike, as well as other rules regarding closed shops, etc...

It is NOT a Freedom of Assmembly issue, as stated at least three times, the freedom to assemble as laid out in the constitution is for redress of grievances against the federal gov't and prevents the gov't from stopping it. A strike is not seeking a redress of griveances against the federal gov't, but against their employer.

In part the T-H Act is what lays out the rules unions have to follow in order to strike. The T-H Act has nothing to do with Freedom of Assembly.

Taft-Hartley Act (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taft%E2%80%93Hartley_Act)

[Turd]

Pretty sure the reason there aren't any SC cases challenging strikes as a violation of the Freedom of Assmebly clause in the First Amendment is because the Taft-Hartley Act (1947), which ammended NLRA, is already federal law that lays out what unions have to do in order to strike, as well as other rules regarding closed shops, etc...

It is NOT a Freedom of Assmembly issue, as stated at least three times, the freedom to assemble as laid out in the constitution is for redress of grievances against the federal gov't and prevents the gov't from stopping it. A strike is not seeking a redress of griveances against the federal gov't, but against their employer.

In part the T-H Act is what lays out the rules unions have to follow in order to strike. The T-H Act has nothing to do with Freedom of Assembly.

Taft-Hartley Act (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taft%E2%80%93Hartley_Act)

You realize that in this case the government IS the employer correct?

[04 Venom]

With all these posts regarding meaning of the Constitution, Wikipedia must be about ready to crash.

[skeptiq]

That's why there are special provions for unions laid out in NLRA and T-H Act...

[04 Venom]

That's why there are special provions for unions laid out in NLRA and T-H Act...

Just a point of information regarding the National Labor Relations Act: it is not limited to the presence of a union at an employee's workplace. For example, the doctrine of protected-concerted activity protects employees, whether represented by a union or not, to protest working conditions, make work-related complaints and strike if they so choose (even if they do not have a union). It also protects employees' right not to join a union if they choose not to and imposes a duty of fair representation on unions representing employees (whether they are members or not). It also prohibits certain secondary and recognitional strikes by unions and requires them to bargain in good faith with employers when a contractual relationship exists.

[firestang70]

http://cincinnati.com/blogs/considerthisclermont/2011/02/22/a-little-collective-bargaining-is-needed/
Well said Sheriff Rodenberg.

[04 Venom]

http://cincinnati.com/blogs/considerthisclermont/2011/02/22/a-little-collective-bargaining-is-needed/
Well said Sheriff Rodenberg.

A well reasoned statement.

[skeptiq]

Just a point of information regarding the National Labor Relations Act: it is not limited to the presence of a union at an employee's workplace. For example, the doctrine of protected-concerted activity protects employees, whether represented by a union or not, to protest working conditions, make work-related complaints and strike if they so choose (even if they do not have a union). It also protects employees' right not to join a union if they choose not to and imposes a duty of fair representation on unions representing employees (whether they are members or not). It also prohibits certain secondary and recognitional strikes by unions and requires them to bargain in good faith with employers when a contractual relationship exists.

Meaning they are protected under NLRA, not the 1st Amendment.

[04 Venom]

Meaning they are protected under NLRA, not the 1st Amendment.

Meaning that the concept of collective bargaining is not defined in the Constitution, but expressions of collective bargaining and labor relations can include enumerated first amendment rights.

[skeptiq]

I am just going to agree to disagree and leave it at that.

[04 Venom]

I am just going to agree to disagree and leave it at that.

I thought I agreed with you. :confused:

[fastone]

http://cincinnati.com/blogs/considerthisclermont/2011/02/22/a-little-collective-bargaining-is-needed/
Well said Sheriff Rodenberg.

I agree with him, but there is private fire coverage. He reminded me of it. Just FYI for everyone. Dow Chemicals. They make about 20 grand more a year to start than public firefighters, but they don't get retirement of 20 years and out. But by five years they are about 30-40 grand more than public firemen. But you have to do private retirement and work till 62. I know of two guys that have went over seas for them and made well into 6 figures a year and they went for four years at a time.

[fastone]

It takes 20 minutes to listen to this phone call. Im sure people will say it's a fake but read the first part where the governor's office says it was. All I got to say is this is crazy. Listen to the back door ideas and back stabbing going on. This kills me.......... Between stuff like this, shit over seas with fighting, this is going to get uglier than it already is. Any recovery we had will be gone very soon!!!!

http://motherjones.com/mojo/2011/02/scott-walker-koch-brother-crank-call-wisconsin

[04 Venom]

It takes 20 minutes to listen to this phone call. Im sure people will say it's a fake but read the first part where the governor's office says it was. All I got to say is this is crazy. Listen to the back door ideas and back stabbing going on. This kills me.......... Between stuff like this, shit over seas with fighting, this is going to get uglier than it already is. Any recovery we had will be gone very soon!!!!

http://motherjones.com/mojo/2011/02/scott-walker-koch-brother-crank-call-wisconsin

Walker's office admits the conversation occurred. It once again shows how money corrupts politics. The caller posed as a well known billionaire who supports right-wing causes to the tune of millions of dollars a year. So he gets through directly to the governor of Wisconsin for a 20 minute conversation. Do you think the governor will take your would take your call? Let's all call tomorrow and post here if you get through to Walker. :lol:

[fastone]

I agree, just showing how screwed we are. Figure in all the unrest in Africa right now and oil supply talk. So much for getting the economy back on track. I think we are going to see a hugh fall again very soon. Hope I'm wrong.

[Mustard]

Just curious if anyone has addressed this. With all the talk about what Unions want to keep and how the State wants to make cuts. How about the union leaders start giving back to lessen the new burden. Case in point.

Since 1990, labor unions have contributed over $667 million in election campaigns in the United States, of which $614 million or 92 percent went to support Democratic candidates. In 2008, unions spent $74.5 million in campaign contributions, with $68.3 million going to the Democratic Party. Already, unions have contributed $6.5 million to the 2010 elections, and $6 million has gone to Democrats, according to the Center for Responsive Politics in Washington, D.C.

So, lets say Joe Smith belongs to the teachers union and is a Libertarian. He doesnt support the Unions candidate but the union gives money from his dues to said candidate. Isnt that wrong? Also, by public sector unions making contributions to political fund raising are they not in a sense trying to hire their own boss since state government pays the wages of said public employees? Furthermore, since the money being spent on contributions comes from the private sector first shouldnt the tax payer have a say in the way that money is spent? See no new wealth or taxes come from public sector jobs because all the public sector wages are paid by private sector money. It seems to me that the members of these unions should look at their leaders and demand a change there first before coming to the door steps of the tax payer and asking for more.

[fastone]

Just curious if anyone has addressed this. With all the talk about what Unions want to keep and how the State wants to make cuts. How about the union leaders start giving back to lessen the new burden. Case in point.

Since 1990, labor unions have contributed over $667 million in election campaigns in the United States, of which $614 million or 92 percent went to support Democratic candidates. In 2008, unions spent $74.5 million in campaign contributions, with $68.3 million going to the Democratic Party. Already, unions have contributed $6.5 million to the 2010 elections, and $6 million has gone to Democrats, according to the Center for Responsive Politics in Washington, D.C.

So, lets say Joe Smith belongs to the teachers union and is a Libertarian. He doesnt support the Unions candidate but the union gives money from his dues to said candidate. Isnt that wrong? Also, by public sector unions making contributions to political fund raising are they not in a sense trying to hire their own boss since state government pays the wages of said public employees? Furthermore, since the money being spent on contributions comes from the private sector first shouldnt the tax payer have a say in the way that money is spent? See no new wealth or taxes come from public sector jobs because all the public sector wages are paid by private sector money. It seems to me that the members of these unions should look at their leaders and demand a change there first before coming to the door steps of the tax payer and asking for more.

Union dues are not spent on backing any candidate. I believe that is a federal law. If you want to give more money to political pacs you can. But I do know for sure, IAFF, (firemen) our union dues DO NOT in any form back any candidate. We would have to give money to our FIREPAC fund which is used for that. I have never given money to it.

[05yellowgt]

Union dues are not spent on backing any candidate. I believe that is a federal law. If you want to give more money to political pacs you can. But I do know for sure, IAFF, (firemen) our union dues DO NOT in any form back any candidate. We would have to give money to our FIREPAC fund which is used for that. I have never given money to it.
For the bolded part, where does the money for campaign contributions come from then? Unions don't have any "income" other than union dues do they? I'm not being a dick here, just asking an honest question. At least this time. :lol:

[fastone]

For the bolded part, where does the money for campaign contributions come from then? Unions don't have any "income" other than union dues do they? I'm not being a dick here, just asking an honest question. At least this time. :lol:

I'm speaking 100% from the IAFF on this one. If I am wrong, one of my IAFF brothers on here will help me. Our union dues will go to fighting this attempt at union breaking. Not to or towards any elected official. Such as the full page ad they had in the New York Times a few days ago. As for the monies for elected officials, that comes from our FIREPAC, which you have to give money to above and beyond your union dues. That is the only money that can be used to back an elected or someone running for a position. I disagree with this some too. Last time we back a president we gave him like 4 million to run and then a week later, he quit. But did he have to give back the millions??? Nope.

[fastone]

I know it's a hot topic for everyone on here. But our retirement and such is a benefit. Your job has benefits also. Most everyone doesn't have to work holidays, or out in bad weather. So do, but most don't. I'm not trying to be a dick to anyone on here, either. But I live in KY and I pay taxes that pay my salary. I also pay school tax, library tax among other things. Do I use the library? No. Do I use the schools? No, don't think a public school could teach my two dogs or horses a thing. Am I yelling that I don't want to pay that tax? No it is something that needs to be paid, because one day I may and hopefully will need it and use it. On average, to have a full time fire department provide you service is cost about $1.40 a day. How much is your cable bill or your cell phone bill a month? I know times are tough for everyone. But taking about the union rights WILL in way fix any budgets anywhere. Of course I could put together a bunch of numbers and make anything look great. Just my $.02.

[05yellowgt]

I think there should be collective bargaining on wages and maybe even benefits for FF,PD, and EMT's since by law you aren't allowed to strike. Everything past this point is directed towards the other public unions and to some extent private unions as well.

I have trouble wrapping my mind around a few things. Is there a reason that union members shouldn't have to begin paying more for health benefits? On average Insurance costs have gone up 20-30% this year across the board. It doesn't matter who is your insurance provider, or how good or bad the coverage is, the costs have gone up period. For retirement plans and 401k's where should the money come from for an employer match in a climate where profits and income have been steadily decreasing since 2007? Should an employer still pay into a 401k at the expense of not being able to meet payroll or pay invoices to their suppliers, rent, taxes etc?

Everyone has to tighten their belts or face the concequences, so why should unions be exempt?

I work in the private sector. If I am unhappy with my pay I can either talk to my superiors about a review and request a pay increase, work harder to show my worth and see if the boss's will decide to give me a raise without me asking, OR I can look for a new job. As far as benefits go if I am unhappy with the insurance, retirement, or other benefits there isn't anything I can really do besides look for a new job with better benefits. If I am illegally terminated, disaplined, or have to work in conditions that are unsafe, I have legal recourse through the court system, OSHA, or other authorities. Laws and organizations like this didn't exist back when Unions were created, so now that we do, is the union even required for that purpose?

I'm not saying disband all unions, I'm just trying to figure out their uses in 2011.

[DSSKing68]

Finiancial Disbursements

Disbursement Records

Representational Activities ( 14.7%) $ 4,588,820
Political Activities & Lobbying ( 15.8%) $ 4,940,253
Contributions, Gifts & Grants ( 2.4%) $ 751,642
General Overhead ( 48.2%) $ 15,067,774
Union Administration ( 22.3%) $ 6,961,536
Total Compensation ( 32.0%) $ 10,004,844
Per Capita Tax ( 6.4%) $ 2,015,682
Source: Department of Labor, Office of Labor Management Standards LM filings

Financial disbursement records for the IAFF

[Timido]

Out health care is set up in out contract they are allowed to raise it so much each year per the contract. We are paying more money every contract for healthcare. Just because it is bargained for does not mean it is going down

[05yellowgt]

Out health care is set up in out contract they are allowed to raise it so much each year per the contract. We are paying more money every contract for healthcare. Just because it is bargained for does not mean it is going down
I didn't mean to sound as if I thought that union insurance costs weren't going up, but one of the main complaints over in Wisconsin is increased insurance and 401k contributions on the employee side.

[fastone]

I think there should be collective bargaining on wages and maybe even benefits for FF,PD, and EMT's since by law you aren't allowed to strike. Everything past this point is directed towards the other public unions and to some extent private unions as well.

I have trouble wrapping my mind around a few things. Is there a reason that union members shouldn't have to begin paying more for health benefits? On average Insurance costs have gone up 20-30% this year across the board. It doesn't matter who is your insurance provider, or how good or bad the coverage is, the costs have gone up period. For retirement plans and 401k's where should the money come from for an employer match in a climate where profits and income have been steadily decreasing since 2007? Should an employer still pay into a 401k at the expense of not being able to meet payroll or pay invoices to their suppliers, rent, taxes etc?

Everyone has to tighten their belts or face the concequences, so why should unions be exempt?

I work in the private sector. If I am unhappy with my pay I can either talk to my superiors about a review and request a pay increase, work harder to show my worth and see if the boss's will decide to give me a raise without me asking, OR I can look for a new job. As far as benefits go if I am unhappy with the insurance, retirement, or other benefits there isn't anything I can really do besides look for a new job with better benefits. If I am illegally terminated, disaplined, or have to work in conditions that are unsafe, I have legal recourse through the court system, OSHA, or other authorities. Laws and organizations like this didn't exist back when Unions were created, so now that we do, is the union even required for that purpose?

I'm not saying disband all unions, I'm just trying to figure out their uses in 2011.

I'm going to catch all kinds of hell for this one. Right now my insurance is 100% paid. But going to my doctor cost 30 bucks alone. My insurance is a 20/80, they only pay 20% of all bills up to $4000 a year. They have said that we might have to start paying for insurance in the coming years. BUT we are self insured. I know that doesn't make a big difference. But they have cut our dental insurance to almost nothing and our vision insurance is gone all together. I know at my department we have trying working with management to keep important things. One being outside training, we have given up a promised 3% raise for that. But we still don't have any money for our outside training, different story for another day. So most of us are making and taking cuts, if not our brothers and sisters will get laid off. I know there is unions out there that are all about me me me, I know the IAFF is not that way. But there are some bad apples in every tree.

[05yellowgt]

I'm going to catch all kinds of hell for this one. Right now my insurance is 100% paid. But going to my doctor cost 30 bucks alone. My insurance is a 20/80, they only pay 20% of all bills up to $4000 a year. They have said that we might have to start paying for insurance in the coming years. BUT we are self insured. I know that doesn't make a big difference. But they have cut our dental insurance to almost nothing and our vision insurance is gone all together. I know at my department we have trying working with management to keep important things. One being outside training, we have given up a promised 3% raise for that. But we still don't have any money for our outside training, different story for another day. So most of us are making and taking cuts, if not our brothers and sisters will get laid off. I know there is unions out there that are all about me me me, I know the IAFF is not that way. But there are some bad apples in every tree.
Sounds like a better plan than I have, but we are just a small company. I think i'd gladly pay some premiums each month than have to pay 80/20 myself, but good plans are hard to come by these days. I'm not going to give you any hell because you in reality don't have any control over your insurance costs, union or not.

[fastone]

Fall out from this has started it sounds like. The Ohio schools no longer have to pay prevailing wage when they build. THIS IS NOT A UNION thing as some news people have reported. I worked for a non-union construction company prior to becoming a full time ff/medic. The pay scales were above union pay scales and also put some money into a retirement fund for them. Was not alot but it was there. My non-union shop got almost everything we bid on. Our guys loved the money too. But now the people in charge in Ohio have seen that they think only unions can bid on these jobs which is completely wrong. So even though you had some union rights while working them, they have taken that away. And this was in private sector construction and now makes it cheaper for the school to build but also hurts those who build those buildings.

[02mingryGT]

Pulled this off You tube which the link for is below. Also found another link hunting for the below quote. I suggest everyone involved in this issue read that quote and then formulate your argument against it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xycy1aNZBzc

http://www.nationalaffairs.com/publications/detail/the-trouble-with-public-sector-unions


President Franklin D. Roosevelt, the patron saint of the American labor movement, was a man of strong character. One has to look no further than the heroic way he coped with his crippling polio. This dreadful disease undoubtedly made him the consummate realist.

For example, although he had a lock on labor's vote, he expressed caution about public sector unions. In a little-known letter he wrote to the president of the National Federation of Federal Employees in 1937, Roosevelt reasoned:

"... Meticulous attention should be paid to the special relationships and obligations of public servants to the public itself and to the government. All Government employees should realize that the process of collective bargaining, as usually understood, cannot be transplanted into the public service. It has its distinct and insurmountable limitations ... The very nature and purposes of Government make it impossible for ... officials ... to bind the employer ... The employer is the whole people, who speak by means of laws enacted by their representatives ...

"Particularly, I want to emphasize my conviction that militant tactics have no place in the functions of any organization of government employees. Upon employees in the federal service rests the obligation to serve the whole people ... This obligation is paramount ... A strike of public employees manifests nothing less than an intent ... to prevent or obstruct ... Government ... Such action, looking toward the paralysis of Government ... is unthinkable and intolerable."