the economy?

[mustangatic]

So, we had a meeting at work today.... And they are saying that the economy will take another spill..I've been watching the news here lately and they are predicting the same...by all means I know things are still bad...but you guys think it will get worse again?

[DeckerEnt]

Well, the stock market just hit 10000 this week. That is a good sign. I really think the worst is over and we are headed into the xmas season. If the media would just report upbeat stories and not report gloom and doom all the time, we would probably be in a much better position now.

[rogers]

I agree if the media would stop all the gloomy b.s. then we surely would be ok I mean if they can get obama elected??? (Wtf!!!) Then they could definatly help turn and keep the economy up... they'll just make him look like he was responsible for it

[NUTTSGT]

It'll get better before it gets worse.


I heard the other day, that if the health care bill goes through, normal working class people will get taxed on our benefits. Where will that income show up? at the end of the year on your tax return, probably wiping out most of your tax return, if you get one.

Now, if this is true, what do you think that would do to the economy? How many people buy new TVs, cars, furniture, home improvements with that money?

[duststang]

I believe it will take another down turn before it gets better! Not trying to be negative but that is what the stock market looks like to me. The economy follows the market. The Media does have a lot influence on people and people do what they are told. The Gov needs to stay out of the market. They are causing inflation and the dollar value is falling. The more the Gov. puts their hands in stuff the worst it gets. The facts are that they caused this mess and now we the people expect them to fix it. The more control you give the Gov the more freedom you lose. (JIMO) We the people need to stick together and get involved, that is what would help get this thing turned around. (JIMO)
Hope I didnt offend anyone!

[02mingryGT]

It'll get better before it gets worse.


I heard the other day, that if the health care bill goes through, normal working class people will get taxed on our benefits. Where will that income show up? at the end of the year on your tax return, probably wiping out most of your tax return, if you get one.

Now, if this is true, what do you think that would do to the economy? How many people buy new TVs, cars, furniture, home improvements with that money?

It is true. If people spend less money it would undoubtedly hurt the economy.

The third quarter of this year was the worse three months for bankruptcies EVER. So no, despite what the state media is telling you the economy is not better.


I believe it will take another down turn before it gets better! Not trying to be negative but that is what the stock market looks like to me. The economy follows the market. The Media does have a lot influence on people and people do what they are told. The Gov needs to stay out of the market. They are causing inflation and the dollar value is falling. The more the Gov. puts their hands in stuff the worst it gets. The facts are that they caused this mess and now we the people expect them to fix it. The more control you give the Gov the more freedom you lose. (JIMO) We the people need to stick together and get involved, that is what would help get this thing turned around. (JIMO)
Hope I didnt offend anyone!


Good post.

[cobra429boss]

Like they say it will get worse before it gets better

[snotzs135]

Its going to get worse long before it get's anywhere near better:mad:
Hold on to your seat because this is going to be a bumpy nasty ride!!
And just because the media says its all good go spend money its all ok
that is not the fix! Get the Gov out of the private business! And the
middleclass is going to have to carry the blunt of whats going on!Healtcare
reform my A$$!

[bascom123]

Well, the stock market just hit 10000 this week. That is a good sign. I really think the worst is over and we are headed into the xmas season. If the media would just report upbeat stories and not report gloom and doom all the time, we would probably be in a much better position now.

Say it again brother. Media is the worst for pulling crap down.

[306Power]

Its going to get worse long before it get's anywhere near better:mad:
Hold on to your seat because this is going to be a bumpy nasty ride!!
And just because the media says its all good go spend money its all ok
that is not the fix! Get the Gov out of the private business! And the
middleclass is going to have to carry the blunt of whats going on!Healtcare
reform my A$$!

We'll never get the Govt. out of private business, as much as people like to think this is Capitalism it's not. There's to many private business that control the economy of this country, that being said I dont want a few fucked up CEO's who doesnt know what it's like to not be rich because Mommy and Daddy wiped their ass as a kid controlling inflation, taxes, and how we do things as a market. Those people dont care about the American people, so why give them all that power? There has to be some Govt control in business.

[duststang]

It is to be a free market! When the Gov has control over things that are to be free, would that still be considered free? If the Gov owns the company you work for, provides your health care, etc. does that mean that they could control what you do? would that be free? When the Gov tells you how to invest your money is that free? Gov tells you that you need to pay for others mistakes is that free? I know we are in hard times and I hate to say it but there has to be failure for improvement. I dont disagree that people spending money keeps everything going. When we are spending fake money that is inflation. Everyone that has made good decisions have been punished for the last 2 years. It is going to continue until we the PEOPLE of AMERICA has had enough! This is just my opinion!

[chadomac]

:dunno:

[306Power]

It is to be a free market! When the Gov has control over things that are to be free, would that still be considered free? If the Gov owns the company you work for, provides your health care, etc. does that mean that they could control what you do? would that be free? When the Gov tells you how to invest your money is that free? Gov tells you that you need to pay for others mistakes is that free? I know we are in hard times and I hate to say it but there has to be failure for improvement. I dont disagree that people spending money keeps everything going. When we are spending fake money that is inflation. Everyone that has made good decisions have been punished for the last 2 years. It is going to continue until we the PEOPLE of AMERICA has had enough! This is just my opinion!

The difference is in govt. we control who is elected, where as CEO's we do not. So would you rather have someone the American people choose or someone we dont? We get screwed either way. Healthcare might as well already be nationalized. Not like you have to pay for it anyways if you get hurt and just dodge the bills for a year or so what happens? Taxes take care of it, not that its right but it happens and will happen so regardless were paying for it out of taxes. If you wanna reform healthcare I think its time to say to hell with these insurance companies that do nothing but thrive off of our dollar the same way the Private banking system does.

[Black92LX]

So, we had a meeting at work today.... And they are saying that the economy will take another spill..I've been watching the news here lately and they are predicting the same...by all means I know things are still bad...but you guys think it will get worse again?

It's going to take another in my opinion.
With the government wanting to raise taxes so much during a rescission is a bad idea in my book.

Then the cash for clunkers program. I see it being much like the housing bubble, just on a slightly smaller scale. People upgrading to cars they can't afford in the first place.


The difference is in govt. we control who is elected, where as CEO's we do not.

This is where you are somewhat incorrect. You do control who is in charge of a company and how well a company does in the free market. If a company is doing well and you like that company you give it business.
If it is not doing good and you don't like it you don't give it business.

You give it business their profits go up you keep the good folks in charge. You don't like the business you don't spend money their profits go down time for a new CEO.

That's the joy of the free market a reward for good work. The reward being profits.

Under anything run by the government it does not matter how crappy of a job they do they still get paid the same.

The free market is by no means perfect. But it's by far the best system out there.

Do you really want the people at the DMV or Social Secuirty Office making decisions about your Health Care???
I sure as hell do not!!!

[snotzs135]

Well I can see why you would want the Goverment to take over health care with the thought of just dodge the bills for a year and let all the other people in the working world that took on the idea of do the right thing and work and pay there debts and be responsable for themselves. Ya I can see your point of let the goverment lead you by the nose into doing exactly what they want sounds good to me:rolleyes:
And with that being said yes we all have diffrent opinions 4.6 mine is difrent then yours thats what makes this a great country to live in we can have a diffrents of opinion and move on.

[wolverine8490]

A. Nothing in this world is "free" so these people who think they will get free/working healthcare are living on cloud 9.

B. The biggest problem is the solution to everything right now is "Just print more money" which is putting us in a hole that are great great great grandchildren will still be paying for.

C. We are headed in the same direction that crumbled the Soviet Union.

D. It is but then again is not all Obama's fault. The reason I say that is the people under him like Pelosi are causing the majority of the issue. But then again, he appointed her.

And to answer the original question, yes I believe it will get much worse soon. How can they say how good we are doing when more houses have been foreclosed on in the 3rd quarter than EVER! Unemployment is still sky high and the US dollar gets weaker and weaker everyday. One reason the stock market is up is because the foreign countries are pushing it up and they are buying in cash from reserve, not cash being printed just because.

[duststang]

Black92LX



I agree!!

[duststang]

Not to Hi-Jack thread I just thought this is good!

THE ANT AND THE GRASSHOPPER

OLD VERSION:
The ant works hard in the withering heat all summer long, building his house and laying up supplies for the winter. The grasshopper thinks the ant is a fool and laughs and dances and plays the summer away. Come winter, the ant is warm and well fed. The grasshopper has no food or shelter, so he dies out in the cold.

MODERN VERSION:
The ant works hard in the withering heat all summer long , building his house and laying up supplies for the winter. The grasshopper thinks the ant is a fool laughing, dances, and plays the summer away. Come winter, the shivering grasshopper calls a press conference and demands to know why the ant should be allowed to be warm and well fed while others are cold and starving. CBS, NBC, PBS, CNN, and ABC show up to provide pictures of the shivering grasshopper next to a video of the ant in his comfortable home with a table filled with food. America is stunned by the sharp contrast. How can this be, that in a country of such wealth, this poor grasshopper is allowed to suffer so? Kermit the Frog appears on Oprah with the grasshopper and everybody cries when they sing, 'It's Not Easy Being Green.' Nancy Pelosi & Harry Reid exclaim in an interview with Larry King that the ant has gotten rich off the back of the grasshopper, and both call for an immediate tax hike on the ant to make him pay his fair share. The ant is fined for failing to hire a proportionate number of green bugs. having nothing left to pay his retroactive taxes, his home is confiscated by the Government Green Czar. The story ends as we see the grasshopper finishing up the last bits of the ants food while the government house he is in, which just happens to be the ant's old house, crumbles around him because he doesn't maintain it.

[306Power]

Just because a company is doing well doesnt mean there not screwing over the American people. Wal-Mart for an example is doing well but is it safe to say they create more job losses and loss of business? For the record I dont let the govt. take me by the "nose" nor do I dodge Medical bills, but others do and nobody can or will stop that. Put yourself in somebody elses shoes, your 19 year old son who isnt in school and can only get a part time job in this economy right now gets a life threatning disease and needs alot of medical attention, your struggling to make it how it is. What would you do? Say screw your son because hes taking our tax dollars as it might be the only thing you've got left thats good in your life? I like to see things from others perspectives.

[05yellowgt]

As long as the foreclosure rate continues to increase (it's projected to continue to rise through 2012 before leveling off) any gains that the stock market and economy as a whole see are only temporary. I doubt we get much higher than 10,000 before heading back down to somewhere between 3000 and 4000.

This is if Cap and Trade and Government health care do not pass pass. If one or both of those bills pass, I fear things will be even worse.

[duststang]

Just because a company is doing well doesnt mean there not screwing over the American people. Wal-Mart for an example is doing well but is it safe to say they create more job losses and loss of business? For the record I dont let the govt. take me by the "nose" nor do I dodge Medical bills, but others do and nobody can or will stop that. Put yourself in somebody elses shoes, your 19 year old son who isnt in school and can only get a part time job in this economy right now gets a life threatning disease and needs alot of medical attention, your struggling to make it how it is. What would you do? Say screw your son because hes taking our tax dollars as it might be the only thing you've got left thats good in your life? I like to see things from others perspectives.

I don't shop at Wal-Mart because of this! If more people would do the same guess what, they would not be doing very good. People would rather get a good deal than stand for what is right!(United we stand divided we fall) The health plan; guess what you son is going to be put on the waiting list for treatment. Is that what happens in other countries?

It is ok to have different opinions that is called diversity! this is just food for thought!

[wolverine8490]

The health plan; guess what you son is going to be put on the waiting list for treatment. Isn't that how it happens in other countries?

Good article about that right here. Even though it is from CNN:

http://www.cnn.com/2009/POLITICS/07/06/canadian.health.care.system/

[306Power]

I don't shop at Wal-Mart because of this! If more people would do the same guess what, they would not be doing very good. People would rather get a good deal than stand for what is right! The health plan; guess what you son is going to be put on the waiting list for treatment. Isn't that how it happens in other countries?

Not really, alot of people point to Canada but overlook the European countries who almost all have some sort of Nationalized Health Care. It can be set up poorly or it can be set up right. How is it somebody in Prison can get a Heart Transplant before somebody not in prison here? Seems messed up we give our prisoners health care but not everybody else? Im not one for National Health Care necessarily but hell the way we do things now we might as well go ahead and do it before the Insurance companines make even more off of us.

[duststang]

How is it somebody in Prison can get a Heart Transplant before somebody not in prison here? Seems messed up

I agree! this is BS! health care; the is a small % that dont have health care!
I think we may have got off the original subject, Sorry Mustangatic!

[wolverine8490]

How is it somebody in Prison can get a Heart Transplant before somebody not in prison here? Seems messed up we give our prisoners health care but not everybody else?

At least people in prison perform community service and have jobs that benifit people.

A lot of people without healthcare already get paid to do nothing by the government and now they want healthcare!! Why do they get it for free and I am stuck paying $150.00 bi-weekly.

So I guess you want to pay for the insurance of people in prison AND for the people that sit on their @ss all day and collect money from the goverrnment?

[306Power]

At least people in prison perform community service and have jobs that benifit people.

A lot of people without healthcare already get paid to do nothing by the government and now they want healthcare!! Why do they get it for free and I am stuck paying $150.00 bi-weekly.

So I guess you want to pay for the insurance of people in prison AND for the people that sit on their @ss all day and collect money from the goverrnment?

But once again how many people really do need it? I think it's sad how nobody is vicariously anymore. It's all about "me, me, me, me." Im more worried about people losing all humane for other people in this country than any economic crisis or healthcare reform.

[05yellowgt]

Not really, alot of people point to Canada but overlook the European countries who almost all have some sort of Nationalized Health Care. It can be set up poorly or it can be set up right. How is it somebody in Prison can get a Heart Transplant before somebody not in prison here? Seems messed up we give our prisoners health care but not everybody else? Im not one for National Health Care necessarily but hell the way we do things now we might as well go ahead and do it before the Insurance companines make even more off of us.
What Country, European or otherwise has done Nationalized Health care right. After answering that, look up said countries tax rates and share that too please.

[306Power]

No matter what system it is there will always be flaws, but France and Britain to name a few have been more sucessful than the U.S. in health care. France doesnt heavily rely on the state only to cover keeping tax rates down. The U.S. has been voted time and time again as one of the worst healthcare systems for a devolped Country. Of course though this is the U.S. we do it right and other countries should follow us :rolleyes:.

[mustangatic]

As long as the foreclosure rate continues to increase (it's projected to continue to rise through 2012 before leveling off) any gains that the stock market and economy as a whole see are only temporary. I doubt we get much higher than 10,000 before heading back down to somewhere between 3000 and 4000.

This is if Cap and Trade and Government health care do not pass pass. If one or both of those bills pass, I fear things will be even worse.

ya, thats my outlook on it. I'm trying to look positive! I definantly do NOT want laid off again for another 6 months! I will go insane!

Sean, How long have you been laid off?

[05yellowgt]

No matter what system it is there will always be flaws, but France and Britain to name a few have been more sucessful than the U.S. in health care. France doesnt heavily rely on the state only to cover keeping tax rates down. The U.S. has been voted time and time again as one of the worst healthcare systems for a devolped Country. Of course though this is the U.S. we do it right and other countries should follow us :rolleyes:.
France also has a 13% higher marginal tax rate for the average worker. The only way to pay for these healthcare "reforms" is to raise taxes. This is where the argument circles back around to the economy. If a person is forced to purchase either a more expensive health plan than they currently have or to purchase health care and they don't want it in the first place, I classify that as a tax. Who here wants to increase the amount of "taxes" they pay right now in this economy? How is that going to end this recession? Oh yeah, the administration said the recession is already over, glad to know that.

The bill with the most momentum currently, the Baucus Bill, only increases the number of individuals in the US covered by insurance from 83% to 94%. Even those numbers can be argued. The President has been quoting numbers of uninsured Americans of of 30 Million people. Only about 10 million people in the US don't have health care and aren't able to get it. The other 20 million are people who don't carry health insurance because they don't want it in the first place.

[306Power]

That's why you use an opt out option like some countries do, that gives you an option as to whether you want to be a part of the National Healthcare. You know it's not a 100 percent single payer system right? Taxpayers and the U.S. Govt pay about 30 percent of total healthcare costs as it is.

[05yellowgt]

The opt out that makes you pay a tax penalty? Either way its a tax. increase over what we pay now. Thats NOT going to help the economy in any way shape or form. Let alone the fact that several studies have shown that the Baucus bill will increase the overall health care costs of the average family over top of the current prices that we pay.

[04 Venom]

It is to be a free market! When the Gov has control over things that are to be free, would that still be considered free? If the Gov owns the company you work for, provides your health care, etc. does that mean that they could control what you do? would that be free? When the Gov tells you how to invest your money is that free? Gov tells you that you need to pay for others mistakes is that free? I know we are in hard times and I hate to say it but there has to be failure for improvement. I dont disagree that people spending money keeps everything going. When we are spending fake money that is inflation. Everyone that has made good decisions have been punished for the last 2 years. It is going to continue until we the PEOPLE of AMERICA has had enough! This is just my opinion!

We have not a free market economy for over 100 years.

[04 Venom]

France also has a 13% higher marginal tax rate for the average worker. The only way to pay for these healthcare "reforms" is to raise taxes. This is where the argument circles back around to the economy. If a person is forced to purchase either a more expensive health plan than they currently have or to purchase health care and they don't want it in the first place, I classify that as a tax. Who here wants to increase the amount of "taxes" they pay right now in this economy? How is that going to end this recession? Oh yeah, the administration said the recession is already over, glad to know that.

The bill with the most momentum currently, the Baucus Bill, only increases the number of individuals in the US covered by insurance from 83% to 94%. Even those numbers can be argued. The President has been quoting numbers of uninsured Americans of of 30 Million people. Only about 10 million people in the US don't have health care and aren't able to get it. The other 20 million are people who don't carry health insurance because they don't want it in the first place.

What is lost in all the hoopla is that we are already paying for the uninsured through higher insurance costs; higher medical costs if you don't have insurance; and, higher local state and federal taxes for those who don't have insurance.

The US health care system is TWICE as expensive than the second highest health care system. You can argue what the best approach is, but everyone assumes the present system is the best in the world. By some measures it is. If you need cutting edge treatment and have the means to pay for it, this is the place to be. We spend an inordinate amount of money caring for individuals with terminal diseases during the last 6 months of life. Everyone wants "the best care possible" for Uncle Harry who is 80 and has liver cancer. Yes, you can prolong his life for several months, but at a huge cost. I am not saying this is wrong, but just pointing out the costs associated with these choices.

Another knock against health care reform is that it will lead to rationing. Well, I get news for you, we have had it for decades. Insurance companies ration care all the time by denying coverage for pre-existing conditions, refusing to cover or renew policies for individuals with certain illnesses; and, denying treatments for what they, and they alone, decide is "experimental" treatment.

If you don't support whatever health care reform emerges from Congress, that is anyone's right. But the amount of deliberate lies, half truths and basic ignorance being served up as the truth is mind numbing. And a good example of this is the statement above that 20 million people don't have insurance simply because they don't want it. :lol:

[306Power]

We will continue to be raped by the Insurance companies then, who once again essentially have a mononply on the system. I dont get how people talk about how much they dislike govt then turn around and back all these insurance companies that the govt backs and lets them screw us over. Guess who made HUGE profits last year? The health insurance companies did, who made HUGE losses last year? 75 percent of the American people did. So why would you wanna keep feeding these insurance companies money?

[04 Venom]

What Country, European or otherwise has done Nationalized Health care right. After answering that, look up said countries tax rates and share that too please.

Ask the people in France Germany, UK or Japan what system they prefer. What percentage of personal bankruptcies in this country are due solely to medical costs? Look it up and prepare to be shocked; and most of them had insurance.

[duststang]

We have not a free market economy for over 100 years.
So should we be like every other country?

[04 Venom]

So, we had a meeting at work today.... And they are saying that the economy will take another spill..I've been watching the news here lately and they are predicting the same...by all means I know things are still bad...but you guys think it will get worse again?

The worse is over. There will be corrections in the stock market (there always are), but the long term trend is positive. The economists seem to agree it will take 12-24 months before unemployment significantly decreases. Continued pain for awhile on that front.

[04 Venom]

So should we be like every other country?

I don't know if I understand your question. The US economy is one of the least regulated mature economies. So, are you saying we should have greater regulation such as Europe or Japan, or less?

[duststang]

I don't know if I understand your question. The US economy is one of the least regulated mature economies. So, are you saying we should have greater regulation such as Europe or Japan, or less?

I think we need LESS! What do you think?

[04 Venom]

Yeah believe everything they say because they have been right the entire time right.

No. Look at such factors as the liquidity in the stock market; the amount of money in circulation in the federal reserve system; the core inflation rate; the decline in inventories; company reports concerning hiring and expansion for the next 12 months; to name a few. Like it or not, the stock market historically signals the trend of the economy for the next 9 months.

I don't get my economic data from Stangbangerz.

[duststang]

No.

I don't get my economic data from Stangbangerz.

me either Im just saying that I dont see it getting any better anytime soon. I said I think it is going to get worse before it gets better. do you invest in the market?

[04 Venom]

I think we need LESS! What do you think?

Hard to answer. Example: more regulation of derivatives (which are basically unregulated and the createst single cause of the meltdown) and less regulation of mature markets which are transparent ( in other words the average buyer can realistically evaluate the risk/reward ratio). The long term trend is probably more regulation simply because the economy is becoming more complex and linked to the economies in other countries.

[Black92LX]

Put yourself in somebody elses shoes, your 19 year old son who isnt in school and can only get a part time job in this economy right now gets a life threatning disease and needs alot of medical attention, your struggling to make it how it is.

1st I would be questioning why he is not getting a college education to make him a better candidate for a job. There is only one replacement for higher education in my opinion and that is the military.

In which both options he would be covered with health insurance.



We will continue to be raped by the Insurance companies then, who once again essentially have a mononply on the system. I dont get how people talk about how much they dislike govt then turn around and back all these insurance companies that the govt backs and lets them screw us over. Guess who made HUGE profits last year? The health insurance companies did, who made HUGE losses last year? 75 percent of the American people did. So why would you wanna keep feeding these insurance companies money?

Those evil profits drive innovation which leads to better care, better medication, and better life.

You let the government take over and set limits on what doctors, medical technology companies, pharmaceutical companies can make you drastically reduce the incentive for new research and development!!!
Therefore producing less and less in the world of medicine.

I will gladly pay for excellent care that I GET TO CHOOSE. As opposed the government taking it over and getting what they tell me.

[04 Venom]

me either Im just saying that I dont see it getting any better anytime soon. I said I think it is going to get worse before it gets better. do you invest in the market?

I absolutely invest in the market. I did not sell last fall and I continue put money in the market. Big caveat here: what is right for me could be wrong for someone else. I am the definition of a long term investor and I only buy mutual funds, some of which I have held since 1985.

[duststang]

All that I'm saying is that when you give the Govt. control then you give up your rights!

[04 Venom]

Those evil profits drive innovation which leads to better care, better medication, and better life.



Not entirely true. The drug companies spend far more on advertising and buying back their own stock than they do on R & D.

[05yellowgt]

We will continue to be raped by the Insurance companies then, who once again essentially have a mononply on the system. I dont get how people talk about how much they dislike govt then turn around and back all these insurance companies that the govt backs and lets them screw us over. Guess who made HUGE profits last year? The health insurance companies did, who made HUGE losses last year? 75 percent of the American people did. So why would you wanna keep feeding these insurance companies money?
Who's backing the insurance companies? There are ways to address the issues that the health care system has without creating giant bureaucracies and funneling trillions more dollars into the control of the federal government. Allowing small businesses to pool together to negotiate better rates with insurance carriers and allow insurance to be purchased across state lines would to wonders to decrease the overall insurance costs.

[306Power]

1st I would be questioning why he is not getting a college education to make him a better candidate for a job. There is only one replacement for higher education in my opinion and that is the military.

In which both options he would be covered with health insurance.




Those evil profits drive innovation which leads to better care, better medication, and better life.

You let the government take over and set limits on what doctors, medical technology companies, pharmaceutical companies can make you drastically reduce the incentive for new research and development!!!
Therefore producing less and less in the world of medicine.

I will gladly pay for excellent care that I GET TO CHOOSE. As opposed the government taking it over and getting what they tell me.

College isnt for everyone and as a Country we cant have everybody going to College it would KILL our economy but thats a whole other aspect. Like stated above how many drug company ads do you see on tv? Maybe it's just me but now all of a sudden Im seeing the insurance companies advertise ALOT more than before, thats not from spending money they had saved up. That's from making more money off of us. They recorded record profits last year and at the beginning of this year and we're in a downfall.

[05yellowgt]

What is lost in all the hoopla is that we are already paying for the uninsured through higher insurance costs; higher medical costs if you don't have insurance; and, higher local state and federal taxes for those who don't have insurance.

The US health care system is TWICE as expensive than the second highest health care system. You can argue what the best approach is, but everyone assumes the present system is the best in the world. By some measures it is. If you need cutting edge treatment and have the means to pay for it, this is the place to be. We spend an inordinate amount of money caring for individuals with terminal diseases during the last 6 months of life. Everyone wants "the best care possible" for Uncle Harry who is 80 and has liver cancer. Yes, you can prolong his life for several months, but at a huge cost. I am not saying this is wrong, but just pointing out the costs associated with these choices.

Another knock against health care reform is that it will lead to rationing. Well, I get news for you, we have had it for decades. Insurance companies ration care all the time by denying coverage for pre-existing conditions, refusing to cover or renew policies for individuals with certain illnesses; and, denying treatments for what they, and they alone, decide is "experimental" treatment.

If you don't support whatever health care reform emerges from Congress, that is anyone's right. But the amount of deliberate lies, half truths and basic ignorance being served up as the truth is mind numbing. And a good example of this is the statement above that 20 million people don't have insurance simply because they don't want it. :lol:
Pre-existing conditions are a tough one. If you get into a car accident and don't have insurance and then the next day call up Geico for coverage. Do you expect them to pay the costs of repairing your car from the wreck the day before when you weren't covered?

I know it's much more complicated than that when it comes to health care. My fiance has a immune disorder that she was born with but it went undiagnosed till she was 23. I don't believe it should fall under a pre-existing condition but it does. It's not like she ate herself into obesity and needs a knee replacement because her excess weight wore out her joints prematurely, smoked herself into lung cancer and needs chemo, or drank herself into liver failure and needs a transplant. Those are the types of issues I think are a bit more justifiable to call pre-existing conditions, but something you are born with shouldn't be.

I found some interesting data regarding the number of uninsured. in 2007 17.6 million people did not have health insurance that made more than $50,000 and another 9.1 million who made more than $75,000. Seems to me most of those 26.7 million people without health insurance could have afforded if if they wanted to. It is not the role of government to legislate us to buy health care.

[04 Venom]

All that I'm saying is that when you give the Govt. control then you give up your rights!

OK, let me put on the flamesuit before answering because I know what's coming. I am not trying to single out dustang on this because this statement " more government always results in less freedom" is bullshit. It is endlessly repeated like the Lord's Prayer. If you want to use the former Soviet Union or present day North Korea as an example, the statement begins to make sense. Then look at Somalia, which has no functional government. Are people flocking there because of the absence of government? Why not, shouldn't this be paradise? See, more government does not always mean less freedom; the opposite is sometimes true. If you live in a modern, first-world nation, you are subject to many forms of control ( such as criminal laws). The notion that all we need is less government (as opposed to more effective government) and we will achieve nirvana, is hopelessly naive.

By the way has anyone noticed how long this thread had progressed with a perfectly civil tone and no name calling? This must be a Stangbangerz record, since there are strong opinions expressed on this topic.

[duststang]

OK, let me put on the flamesuit before answering because I know what's coming. I am not trying to single out dustang on this because this statement " more government always results in less freedom" is bullshit. It is endlessly repeated like the Lord's Prayer. If you want to use the former Soviet Union or present day North Korea as an example, the statement begins to make sense. Then look at Somalia, which has no functional government. Are people flocking there because of the absence of government? Why not, shouldn't this be paradise? See, more government does not always mean less freedom; the opposite is sometimes true. If you live in a modern, first-world nation, you are subject to many forms of control ( such as criminal laws). The notion that all we need is less government (as opposed to more effective government) and we will achieve nirvana, is hopelessly naive.

By the way has anyone noticed how long this thread had progressed with a perfectly civil tone and no name calling? This must be a Stangbangerz record, since there are strong opinions expressed on this topic.

So you are saying that we should become a nation like the rest? I suppose you also think that the Govt. will take care of everyone and fix all the problems it created? I'm not talking about other countries just our country. I think that everyone deserves their opinion becasue we are a free country and that is what our unmodern constitution says. I just like to know where people stand! it has been a interesting debate!

[04 Venom]

So you are saying that we should become a nation like the rest? I suppose you also think that the Govt. will take care of everyone and fix all the problems it created?

No, don't put words in my mouth. I wanted to draw attention to fact that "basic truths" are not always basic truths. Government should not and cannot take care of everyone--I never said that. You are dead wrong when you say the government created all the problems. Again, it is a gross oversimplification. What happened last fall had many causes including the government, basic greed, dishonesty and financial instruments that rewarded excessive risk and speculative behavior that added nothing to economic productivity--just to name a few. Just because people want to believe there is a simple cure for a problem doesn't mean one exists.

[duststang]

So we ar not losing our rights because of Govt. involvement? do you believe in Socialism? The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those
who are willing to work and give to those who would not. "Thomas Jefferson"
You can’t legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for, another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the goverment does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to=take care of them, and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for.
A Govt. that is big enough to give you everything you want is big enought to take everything you have.

[04 Venom]

So we ar not losing our rights because of Govt. involvement? do you believe in Socialism? The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those
who are willing to work and give to those who would not. "Thomas Jefferson"
You can’t legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for, another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the goverment does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to=take care of them, and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for.
A Govt. that is big enough to give you everything you want is big enought to take everything you have.

Seriously, dustang, where do you get that from anything I posted? You need to turn off the Rush Limbaugh button on your computer. I never said what you accuse me of saying.

[duststang]

No, don't put words in my mouth. I wanted to draw attention to fact that "basic truths" are not always basic truths. Government should not and cannot take care of everyone--I never said that. You are dead wrong when you say the government created all the problems. Again, it is a gross oversimplification. What happened last fall had many causes including the government, basic greed, dishonesty and financial instruments that rewarded excessive risk and speculative behavior that added nothing to economic productivity--just to name a few. Just because people want to believe there is a simple cure for a problem doesn't mean one exists.
So what exactly are you saying because I feel like your are a professional debater? I dont want to put words in your mouth im just asking to make sure I know where you stand so I do set on your totes!

I never accused you of saying anything I was merely asking!

[duststang]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jeYscnFpEyA&feature=player_embedded

[duststang]

I absolutely invest in the market. I did not sell last fall and I continue put money in the market. Big caveat here: what is right for me could be wrong for someone else. I am the definition of a long term investor and I only buy mutual funds, some of which I have held since 1985.

is this investing your retirement account?

[duststang]

interesting video...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KFXuGIpsdE0

[snotzs135]

Well even when I was working part time I still paid for my own health care that would have covered major medical problems i.e cancer treatment long hospital stays and such so why should I have paid for that when I could have just dodged the bills for a year and let everyone else be resposable for me. I think alot of the problem is alot of the people feel like it should be given to them not earned or its not there fault it happened to them so why should they have to take care of the problem. is there problems with health care sure are the examples of poeple being dropped when they shouldn't be yes but I don't feel I should have to pay for someone else to have health care because they are to lazy or they dont make it a priority to have it. Put laws in place to help resolve these type of problems instead of reinventing the wheel on health care.

[02mingryGT]

Everyone should know 04 Venom is a government worker so he'a little biased about said topic.

[02mingryGT]

And without going through his the economy is getting better and shredding that shit to shreds along with the health care system in Europe is fantastic(I laughed so hard about that I almost pissed myself) I'll leave some links so you can decide yourself:

http://apnews.myway.com/article/20091017/D9BCHP5O0.html

Deficit increases folks. To pay down a deficit what do you do? CUT SPENDING OR RAISE TAXES. Which do you think our liberal Marxist President plans on???

Raising taxes usually means businesses do not have money for capital improvements nor new employment.

http://apnews.myway.com/article/20091016/D9BC74KG0.html

Consumers still struggle to pay their bills.


http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/33336289/ns/politics-washington_post/

Government run health care. Put down the twinkie fatso!!

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-490233/Record-numbers-abroad-health-treatment-70-000-escaping-NHS.html

British patients leave country to get care.

[02mingryGT]

Seriously, dustang, where do you get that from anything I posted? You need to turn off the Rush Limbaugh button on your computer. I never said what you accuse me of saying.

And the first personal attack. Way to fuck it up 04.

[Black92LX]

College isnt for everyone and as a Country we cant have everybody going to College it would KILL our economy but thats a whole other aspect. Like stated above how many drug company ads do you see on tv? Maybe it's just me but now all of a sudden Im seeing the insurance companies advertise ALOT more than before, thats not from spending money they had saved up. That's from making more money off of us. They recorded record profits last year and at the beginning of this year and we're in a downfall.

College Education no higher education yes, especially if they are unable to get a job.

And why should a company not be making large profits????? IS that not the point of a company???
People argue the same thing about the oil companies when they are making money.

Why should they have to give you a cheap price at little to no profits.

Health Care is by no means a human right nor is it anything the Government is supposed to handle.

Our current problem is we live in a country with lack of responsibility and the feeling of entitlement.

The government owes you nothing! No one owes you anything.

[DeckerEnt]

Yeah! What he said!!!! Well put!!

[NXcoupe]

The worse is over. There will be corrections in the stock market (there always are), but the long term trend is positive. The economists seem to agree it will take 12-24 months before unemployment significantly decreases. Continued pain for awhile on that front.

You seem pretty well read, also seem to be well read in liberal biased information. I am not slamming that. It's the same for the conservative biased info I have read on here too. Now, that brings me to this point, a lot of data is out there as far as unemployment goes. This past month unemployment claims dropped, is that a good thing? Probably not, it doesn't mean those people got jobs necessarily, what it probably means is their benefits ran out and now the numbers appear lower. All I'm saying is look and find out where they are getting their information they are using for the criteria to say one thing or another. Statistics can be manipulated very easily to show whatever the author's goal is for the point of their article. I for one can tell you there is no upturn. The economy is worse than I have seen in 15 years of business.
If you want to know how the economy is doing, make some phone calls to friends, talk to neighbors that are unemployed and ask them if they are back to work, and how the job market is.
I am not wanting into this argument. I don't think any bill in the government is going to 'cure' this problem. Read your history books, nothing that the government did during the great depression had any effects either, short term band aids, but it just took 4 to 5 years to start a significant recovery after small peaks and valleys after the initial fall.
I pray our country recovers. I pray our politicians are following a course they feel is best for the country and not for their party or special interests. Most of all I pray for my family and friends that they survive this and our country heals itself quickly.

[duststang]

. Now, that brings me to this point, a lot of data is out there as far as unemployment goes. This past month unemployment claims dropped, is that a good thing? Probably not, it doesn't mean those people got jobs necessarily, what it probably means is their benefits ran out and now the numbers appear lower.
If you want to know how the economy is doing, make some phone calls to friends, talk to neighbors that are unemployed and ask them if they are back to work, and how the job market is.


I agree.

[the kid]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SD_YOlUBoIk

[04 Venom]

Everyone should know 04 Venom is a government worker so he'a little biased about said topic.

A viewpoint does not signal a bias. Since you and I have posted on these subjects many times, you also know that I have been very critical of government on many occasions such as deficit spending and the need to reduce entitlement spending. By the way I have also worked in the private sector.

Since you fancy yourself a true conservative, I suppose you have a conservative bias and cannot argue a point without the interference of that bias?

[chadomac]

:AR15::AR15::AR15::AR15::AR15:

[04 Venom]

You seem pretty well read, also seem to be well read in liberal biased information. I am not slamming that. It's the same for the conservative biased info I have read on here too. Now, that brings me to this point, a lot of data is out there as far as unemployment goes. This past month unemployment claims dropped, is that a good thing? Probably not, it doesn't mean those people got jobs necessarily, what it probably means is their benefits ran out and now the numbers appear lower. All I'm saying is look and find out where they are getting their information they are using for the criteria to say one thing or another. Statistics can be manipulated very easily to show whatever the author's goal is for the point of their article. I for one can tell you there is no upturn. The economy is worse than I have seen in 15 years of business.
If you want to know how the economy is doing, make some phone calls to friends, talk to neighbors that are unemployed and ask them if they are back to work, and how the job market is.
I am not wanting into this argument. I don't think any bill in the government is going to 'cure' this problem. Read your history books, nothing that the government did during the great depression had any effects either, short term band aids, but it just took 4 to 5 years to start a significant recovery after small peaks and valleys after the initial fall.
I pray our country recovers. I pray our politicians are following a course they feel is best for the country and not for their party or special interests. Most of all I pray for my family and friends that they survive this and our country heals itself quickly.

Someone please tell the Wall Street Journal that they are spreading liberal- biased information about the economy. I agree with you that that the economy is extremely weak, probably the worse since the Great Depression.

[306Power]

College Education no higher education yes, especially if they are unable to get a job.

And why should a company not be making large profits????? IS that not the point of a company???
People argue the same thing about the oil companies when they are making money.

Why should they have to give you a cheap price at little to no profits.

Health Care is by no means a human right nor is it anything the Government is supposed to handle.

Our current problem is we live in a country with lack of responsibility and the feeling of entitlement.

The government owes you nothing! No one owes you anything.

Higher Education isnt for everybody either, maybe it was for you and your family but not everybody. I thought you said you didnt like govt interference? I hope your not in the same group of people that think "Higher Education" should be mandatory. Besides that it would still kill our economy. Of course thats the point of being a business making as much money as you can, but when you run a monoply off the American people is it still ok? The Federal Reserve for an example is not govt run, so is it ok for them to charge w/e price they want to make the dollar? In your theory they should jack up the prices which would cause higher tax dollars for all of us, Ronald Reagon tried the whole govt de regulation that you all bow down to and how did that work out? One of the main reasons that is unknown to most as to why we had the American Revolution was the Private Bankers and business men you all bow down to were ripping apart our colonists.

[04 Venom]

Everyone should know 04 Venom is a government worker so he'a little biased about said topic.

Everyone should know that Mingry watches Glenn Beck and reads the Washington Times online so he's a little biased when it comes to any criticism of Obama and the Democrats. You see how stupid blanket statements become?

[duststang]

You are dead wrong when you say the government created all the problems.

16505
Here is the facts. its kinda long but you can track everything back and it is not bias

[04 Venom]

16505
Here is the facts. its kinda long but you can track everything back and it is not bias

One person's viewpoint is more accurate.

[duststang]

One person's viewpoint is more accurate.

Are you saying that this is not true?

[04 Venom]

Are you saying that this is not true?

I am saying that it is a sting of quotes linked together that draws many wrong conclusions. The article is poorly written. If you want to read a much better, more authoritative, and accurate analysis of the financial meltdown read the series of articles done by the Wall Street Journal. They should be available online.

[duststang]

I am saying that it is a sting of quotes linked together that draws many wrong conclusions. The article is poorly written. If you want to read a much better, more authoritative, and accurate analysis of the financial meltdown read the series of articles done by the Wall Street Journal. They should be available online.

why would you think Wall Street Journal is more authoritative than IBD? Why dont you pick out the exact points in the artical and show documented proof where it is wrong? sending me to the Wall Street Journal is not going to cut it. At least this Article has facts that you can look up to be true. Did you read the whole artical? What is your exact title with the Govt.? I like how you can discredit everyone and not one time you have shown any facts so far.

[duststang]

here maybe this will make it easier for everyone to read. it is about 5 pages or you can click full page.
http://www.investors.com/NewsAndAnalysis/Article.aspx?id=487326&Ntt=M.+JAY+WELLS+10%2f30%2f08

[Black92LX]

Higher Education isnt for everybody either, maybe it was for you and your family but not everybody. I thought you said you didnt like govt interference? I hope your not in the same group of people that think "Higher Education" should be mandatory. Besides that it would still kill our economy. Of course thats the point of being a business making as much money as you can, but when you run a monoply off the American people is it still ok? The Federal Reserve for an example is not govt run, so is it ok for them to charge w/e price they want to make the dollar? In your theory they should jack up the prices which would cause higher tax dollars for all of us, Ronald Reagon tried the whole govt de regulation that you all bow down to and how did that work out? One of the main reasons that is unknown to most as to why we had the American Revolution was the Private Bankers and business men you all bow down to were ripping apart our colonists.

No I am not saying higher education should be mandatory. But if you can't get a job obviously one needs to pad the resume. And the best things on resumes are more education and work experience. If you can't get work experience time to step up the education. That could be anything from vocational classes, to masters degree. Anything.
If they have a job that's good. But if you can't get one you need to start making yourself better.

And no I don't think higher education should be mandatory by any means, but if you can't get a job you NEED to do something more!

The health industry is FAR from a monopoly. There are tons of choices out there.
There are tons of health insurance companies with hundreds of coverage options.
Then after that there are 1,000s of doctors to choose from, clinics, dentists eye doctors.

It's no where near a monopoly. Is it a high price business ohh hell yeah, but it should be.

[02mingryGT]

Everyone should know that Mingry watches Glenn Beck and reads the Washington Times online so he's a little biased when it comes to any criticism of Obama and the Democrats. You see how stupid blanket statements become?

Not when your livelihood depends on government expansion Venom. My livelihood does not. In this economy it is incredible to me that the government has expanded as much as it has. I really feel all of this discussions are moot considering the reversal that's going to happen in 2010.

[04 Venom]

Not when your livelihood depends on government expansion Venom. My livelihood does not. In this economy it is incredible to me that the government has expanded as much as it has. I really feel all of this discussions are moot considering the reversal that's going to happen in 2010.

I think it is more correct to say that government spending has expanded. If you are predicting a Republican majority in the House, I'd say it the odds are against it.

[306Power]

No I am not saying higher education should be mandatory. But if you can't get a job obviously one needs to pad the resume. And the best things on resumes are more education and work experience. If you can't get work experience time to step up the education. That could be anything from vocational classes, to masters degree. Anything.
If they have a job that's good. But if you can't get one you need to start making yourself better.

And no I don't think higher education should be mandatory by any means, but if you can't get a job you NEED to do something more!

The health industry is FAR from a monopoly. There are tons of choices out there.
There are tons of health insurance companies with hundreds of coverage options.
Then after that there are 1,000s of doctors to choose from, clinics, dentists eye doctors.

It's no where near a monopoly. Is it a high price business ohh hell yeah, but it should be.


College is still not the answer for everybody, Ive seen younger people from the ground up high school dropouts work there way up to the point where there supervising bachelor degree workers. Making more money and not having to pay a ridiculous amount in loans (thats all colleges want anyways.)


THe health insurance companies arent stupid, yes there many of them. They also realize its a business we all need so they know to jack up every cent they can on it together. Therefore making it a monoply on the American people in a roundabout way. We can still choose but what good does that make when there all ripping us off? I just want to get this straight though, you think the govt should have absolutly no interference in it? So it would be ok for the insurance companies to double the price of healthcare and let the upperclass pay to keep them in business, and then it end up taking more than half of your paycheck?

[duststang]

Not when your livelihood depends on government expansion Venom. My livelihood does not. In this economy it is incredible to me that the government has expanded as much as it has. I really feel all of this discussions are moot considering the reversal that's going to happen in 2010.

:bigthumb

[duststang]

I think it is more correct to say that government spending has expanded. If you are predicting a Republican majority in the House, I'd say it the odds are against it.

Where do you get your facts? or is everything just your opinion? Just wondering not trying to offend anyone.

[04 Venom]

Where do you get your facts? or is everything just your opinion? Just wondering not trying to offend any.

Look at the mid-term election figures over the last 40 years. They would predict a loss of about 20 seats in the House for the majority party--not enough to swing control to the Republicans. The other factor people do not take into account is the fact that as much as the public may dislike the Democrats, they have an even lower opinion of the Republicans, although the margin of difference is declining.

Whether the Republicans or Democrats are in control doesn't seem to matter all that much--policies don't change that significantly. Want proof? Look at the growth of domestic spending under Bush--it was higher than under Clinton. You didn't hear any cries from the Republicans about deficit spending from 2000-2006 (when they controlled the White House and Congress) did you? The national debt doubled under Bush (and only about 18% was due to the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan). That forever shattered the myth that the Republicans were the party of smaller government and fiscal control. The Democrats fare no better. Both parties pander to their respective interest groups and the public's interest suffers.

One of best sources of political editorials, statistics and analyses is RealClearPolitics.com. Very useful data.

[duststang]

Whether the Republicans or Democrats are in control doesn't seem to matter all that much--policies don't change that significantly.

You for got one thing we doubled national again after Bush and we are about broke. I would agree for the most part on this. It has been nice debating with you, hope no one took any offence.

[04 Venom]

You for got one thing we doubled national again after Bush and we are about broke. I would agree for the most part on this. It has been nice debating with you, hope no one took any offence.

No one took offense.

Democrats and Republicans are both like crack whores when it comes to money and fund raising. The Supreme Court botched it big time when they ruled that campaign contributions were a form of free speech (so much for a strict construction of the Constitution). Now it will take a constitutional amendment to require public financing of elections (or alternatively, set strict limits on contributions and outlaw PACs--used by corporations, labor unions and politicians to get around existing restrictions). Getting the money out of politics is essential. Petitioning your government does not mean buying access with contributions.

[04 Venom]

You for got one thing we doubled national again after Bush .

That isn't correct. The deficit of $1.4 trillion this year is far and away a single year record, but you would have to add another $10.3 trillion to double the national debt since Bush left office. Here's a chronology of the defit since Reagan took office (when the deficit first hit $1 trillion)

January 1981 $1 trillion (Reagan takes office)
January 1993 $4.2 trillion (Clinton takes office)
Januray 2001 $5.7 trillion (Bush takes office)
January 2009 $11.7 trillion (Obama takes office)

Scary figures aren't they? If nothing changes, we will come close to doubling the debt in another 10 years. Another sobering thought, private debt has increased at a greater rate and higher total than the federal debt.

[duststang]

That isn't correct. The deficit of $1.4 trillion this year is far and away


Scary figures aren't they? .

I didn't mean literally, I was just figuratively speaking.
That is VERY SCARY.

[Black92LX]

College is still not the answer for everybody, Ive seen younger people from the ground up high school dropouts work there way up to the point where there supervising bachelor degree workers. Making more money and not having to pay a ridiculous amount in loans (thats all colleges want anyways.)


THe health insurance companies arent stupid, yes there many of them. They also realize its a business we all need so they know to jack up every cent they can on it together. Therefore making it a monoply on the American people in a roundabout way. We can still choose but what good does that make when there all ripping us off? I just want to get this straight though, you think the govt should have absolutly no interference in it? So it would be ok for the insurance companies to double the price of healthcare and let the upperclass pay to keep them in business, and then it end up taking more than half of your paycheck?

Again I agree that not everyone needs to go to college. HIGHER EDUCATION does not always equate to college. There are tons of different types of higher education.
My point is in your scenario that the 19 year old could not get a job. If one can't get a job it's time to build the resume with higher education because work experience is not happening at the moment.

I also never said there should be no government regulation. I agree there should be some regulation. What I did say is it is not the governments job to provide us with the care. Health Care like anything else is based upon the free market. They will charge what they can get for it. In the case of health care the stakes are going to be much higher because peoples lives depend on the care therefore they are going to pay or do what they have to to get the best care.

Don't get me wrong I would love "free" health care, but I also live in reality and know that nothing is free and that you get what you pay for. I also see how the government runs many other programs and how terrible they are with my money. And frankly I want them as far away from any decision that deals with my direct health and well being and I will gladly pay a premium for that.

The problem is we live in an entitlement generation. People think they are owed things from the government and others.

Again I will state it again. YOU ARE OWED NOTHING BY ANYONE OR ANYTHING!!!!

[duststang]

Health Care like anything else is based upon the free market.

Don't get me wrong I would love "free" health care, but I also live in reality and know that nothing is free and that you get what you pay for. I also see how the government runs many other programs and how terrible they are with my money. And frankly I want them as far away from any decision that deals with my direct health and well being and I will gladly pay a premium for that.

The problem is we live in an entitlement generation. People think they are owed things from the government and others.

Again I will state it again. YOU ARE OWED NOTHING BY ANYONE OR ANYTHING!!!!

:bigthumb You got it!

[duststang]

Very interesting information.
http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2009/10/18/gregg-u-s-could-be-on-path-to-a-banana-republic-situation/

interesting articles.
http://www.suntimes.com/news/huntley/1834209,CST-EDT-HUNT20.article
http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=113463

[relaxednoma]

I will say that I went to college, Associates Degree in, well basically computer science, took me 3 years to get into the IT field even. Now I find myself just paddling in the same water, not going up in pay, although not down, and fortunate to have a job, yet i I am looking at changing careers altogether and starting now (since I'm 26) with CSX. Of course this is also in addition to my wife being terminated while on maternity leave due to the economy. Hopefully one day though, I'll reach my goal/dream of building/working on trucks, at least on a semi part-time basis.

[IWRBB]

The housing market is still crap. Until it returns, the economy will be horrible. Building new houses is what drives this country's economy- period. Commercial, office, and instutional construction is a close second. The housing market completely died in early 2005 and we've been in a downward slide ever since. The office market followed, then the commerical market, then the instutional market. None are showing any signs of picking up again either, at least not significantly. You think this year is bad, wait until 2010.

[04 Venom]

The housing market is still crap. Until it returns, the economy will be horrible. Building new houses is what drives this country's economy- period. Commercial, office, and instutional construction is a close second. The housing market completely died in early 2005 and we've been in a downward slide ever since. The office market followed, then the commerical market, then the instutional market. None are showing any signs of picking up again either, at least not significantly. You think this year is bad, wait until 2010.

As of 10/12/09, consumer spending is 71% of GDP.

[IWRBB]

Concrete, lumber, glass, shingles, furniture, carpet, tile, wiring, paints, glues, appliances, plumbing fixtures, HVAC equipment. All of the packaging it comes in, all of the trucks it's shipped on- and that's just one house. The development itself employs engineers, architects, surveyors, construction companies, utility companies-> plans, staking, paving, concrete curbing, pipes, pumps, transformers, it just goes on and on. Housing drives the economy up and down. It all fell apart in 05, new residential development just stopped around here. This was way before the "credit crunch". Until new houses go up en masse again, we are all fuxored...

[the kid]

Below is something I found interesting.

The preferred way to answer the business cycle question of expansion versus
contraction is to examine the four variables most integral to the economy?s
performance: employment, production, personal income, and sales.Recessions end
when the National Bureau of Economic Research (NBER), the official arbiter of
such matters, says they end. But sometimes economic conditions suggest that the
NBER miscalculated. Economic recovery occurs when these four indicators turn
higher at about the same time. If the NBER?s cycle turning dates are aligned
with these four indicators they have validity. Regardless of the NBER?s opinion,
if the four indicators are not rising, a normal recovery will not occur. This
seemingly esoteric point has important implications for the stock market. If a
complete recovery of these four variables is still far in the future, then the
current gains in the stock market cannot be sustained, just as rallies were not
sustained in 2001.

http://www.hoisingtonmgt.com/pdf/HIM2009Q2NP.pdf

http://www.investopedia.com/university/releases/employmentsituation.asp
http://www.investopedia.com/university/releases/personalconsumption.asp
http://www.investopedia.com/university/releases/productioncapacity.asp
http://www.investopedia.com/university/releases/wholesaletrade.asp



housing article.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20091025/us_nm/us_usa_housing_detroit

[the kid]

fleming.house.gov/index.html