small block chevy in a fox!!! help!! lol

[SLWB16hatch]

ok. i'm new to mustangs anyway, but a buddy of mine got a great deal on a notchback and wants to put a decently built 355 in it. here is where we are stuck. we bought a sbc swap k-member, and it doesnt say if we need to run a mid plate or not. does anyone know? any help will be greatly appreciated... thanks

[Ranger50]

Only if you are using motor plates do you need the midplate. Now, it's up to the manufacturer to determine the proper motor mounts for it to bolt up to the kmember mounts.

HTH,
Brian

[mustangrfast88]

why would somebody do that to a mustang

[facemelter71]

Alot of people think you can make more power from a 350 than you can with a 302 or 351.Or its cheaper to build than a SBF.Other than that,i have no idea.Couldnt you just buy a camaro,or old school Malibu?

[quik lx]

I'd do it....you can build a 400 horse SBC for the price of a set of AFR 225's for a 351W. Stupid ford's:D

[facemelter71]

Im not bein a smartass but im curious? How much power can you make with a set of afr's and 351 windsor.

[nskaats]

Alot of people think you can make more power from a 350 than you can with a 302 or 351.Or its cheaper to build than a SBF.Other than that,i have no idea.Couldnt you just buy a camaro,or old school Malibu?

Pretty simple really; it's a great combination. A great chassis and a great engine. The fox chassis is light, suspension works great, parts are cheap, and they're great looking. The SBC is a strong and versatile platform, parts are cheap, and you can make any level of power you want for relatively cheap.

Everyone has their own taste. I plan to build a fox in the future because I love the car, but I just don't have any interest in Ford's powertrain. I may go with a carbed small block and rev it to the moon or do another LS1/T56 swap and make a real road car. While I'm not sure what direction the car will take, I do know for sure where the power will come from.

[Rick93coupe]

why would somebody do that to a mustang

:tard:

:D

[SLWB16hatch]

well he got the car for almost nothing. literally like 250 bucks. but the reason we are going with a chevy is cause you can literally throw a junkyard 383 together for less than the price of rebuilding a stock 302. chevy parts are easier to find, more companies make them, and they are cheaper to build. afr 225's run in the 1800-2100 dollar range. on a 351(if you find 1 in good shape) they should make in the 350hp range. a junkyard 383 in a notch is a mid-low 12 second car, for almost no money. i would like to build a big inch sbf, but it takes more money than i can provide, so i guess i'll settle with a chevy.....:bigthumb

[SLWB16hatch]

plus mustangs will hook in a mud puddle if they are set up right....lol

[facemelter71]

Well.I just swapped a guy for his 351 windsor (70's truck engine) for 60 bucks.And i was wanting to build that to put in my coupe.I was curious as to my power range with a nice set of heads.I built plenty of sbc at school down in AZ,and they hold together fairly well (unless you finger tighten rods and mains).

But,sbf parts are becoming less expensive year by year.And two motors sbf-sbc built at the same expense,the ford will make more power.

[nskaats]

But,sbf parts are becoming less expensive year by year.And two motors sbf-sbc built at the same expense,the ford will make more power.

No offense, but that doesn't really sound like the most educated statement. Not just because it sounds like a guy trying to make some kind of case for his Fords, but come on....common sense tells you that you can spend $100 in 100 different ways on any engine. That's a completely irrelevant statement.

You ever wonder why you see so many Ford street rods, and other makes, with GM powertrains in them? You only see a small fraction going the other way. When it comes down to it GM engines can and will be built more reliable and more powerful for the same amount of money almost every time. If 50+ years of hot rodding hasn't confirmed that for you yet, I don't know what will. This is just the old school stuff, when it comes to the new generation of V8 performance engines...there's NO comparison at all.

[facemelter71]

Well,what ever man.We can argue this point till one of us dies.the chevy 350 reigns supreme.I forgot how most awesome they are.Ill stick with being about to change my spark plugs in a half hour.

[rogers]

No offense, but that doesn't really sound like the most educated statement. Not just because it sounds like a guy trying to make some kind of case for his Fords, but come on....common sense tells you that you can spend $100 in 100 different ways on any engine. That's a completely irrelevant statement.

You ever wonder why you see so many Ford street rods, and other makes, with GM powertrains in them? You only see a small fraction going the other way. When it comes down to it GM engines can and will be built more reliable and more powerful for the same amount of money almost every time. If 50+ years of hot rodding hasn't confirmed that for you yet, I don't know what will. This is just the old school stuff, when it comes to the new generation of V8 performance engines...there's NO comparison at all.



yeah they "HOT ROD" them with gm engines because they are cheap and most old "HOT RODDERS" didn't have alot of cash, basically they are for poor people :lol: JFWY!!!

[Rick93coupe]

The old school chevy's were not any more reliable than the old fords. Also, ford always chose to put the 302 in its performance cars, whereas chevy opted for the 350. That being said you can't compare apples to apples. The 351 never really came in anything performance oriented(much), it was usually used in land yachts or trucks. Take the 351 and the 350, put comparable flowing heads and supporting hardware and they will be damn near identical.

[SLWB16hatch]

yeah they "HOT ROD" them with gm engines because they are cheap and most old "HOT RODDERS" didn't have alot of cash, basically they are for poor people :lol: JFWY!!!

thats some funny shit! lol. but really its true. if you wanna build a decently fast mustang far very cheap, throw a chevy motor in it. i know it doesnt seem right, and i'm a ford guy, but until prices drop a bit, i'm gonna be a po fool and put a chevy in it. lol. since this is a team project....maybe there will be a build thread....

[rogers]

thats some funny shit! lol. but really its true. if you wanna build a decently fast mustang far very cheap, throw a chevy motor in it. i know it doesnt seem right, and i'm a ford guy, but until prices drop a bit, i'm gonna be a po fool and put a chevy in it. lol. since this is a team project....maybe there will be a build thread....

oh i do agree there's something about a cammed up 350 through a set of two chamber flows that makes my heart thump but thats probably cause it was in my mom and dads 74 nova ss.:lol:

i'm just not one for cross breading....:eek:

i know anything is possible as long as it's made of metal and hypothecitcally i wanted to konw the power if the 350 and the 351 were built with simalar parts so i put them in the equations on the first edition of desktop dyno and the 351 made more peak power at 5500 but the 350 carried the power band an extra 500 rpm this has been alomost ten years ago but i was curious so the the ford made more power but the chevy carried it farther and the difference was only about 5hp :confused:

just my opinion ar experiment :lol:

[Timido]

I think the Ford aftermarket for the mustang has made the ford engines closser to bang for the buck as a comparable chevy.

If it takes a 383 to run mid 12's who cares. I could do that with a mostly stock 302. AFR225s on a 351 block to make 350hp. Dont believe everything you hear. The chevy is not all that. Check out the Engine builders challange builds lots of fast fords and chevys.

[mustangjon]

chevy engines are cheaper period... thing i never understood is why a 100k show 40 ford persay... has a chevy engine.. was 500-1000 bucks difference really going to break the budget??? If your going for cheap race, cheap whatever in cheap car then so be it.

As the old saying goes, there are 3 things in hot rodding:
Fast
Pretty
Cheap

You can only have 2 of the 3
:bigthumb

[nskaats]

i know anything is possible as long as it's made of metal and hypothecitcally i wanted to konw the power if the 350 and the 351 were built with simalar parts so i put them in the equations on the first edition of desktop dyno and the 351 made more peak power at 5500 but the 350 carried the power band an extra 500 rpm this has been alomost ten years ago but i was curious so the the ford made more power but the chevy carried it farther and the difference was only about 5hp :confused:

just my opinion ar experiment :lol:

That's the closest I've heard to reality so far. You're on the right path!

Long story short, when it comes to making power...it all comes down to the numbers. If you have a set of heads that flow identical numbers, identical intakes, identical setup on the bottom end, and both tuned properly they should in theory produce identical power numbers. The reality of the issue is that there is no way we're going to be able to make all the flow numbers match perfectly on the two different platforms.

Now if you can actually build two identical setups like this, hands down you're going to spend less money on the Chevrolet. There should be NO question about that.

The most important component in determing the power potential will be the cylinder heads every time. Heads are the key to making power. If you look at the aftermarket for SBF vs SBC heads, you'll see why the SBC is so popular in street and race applications. The market is flooded with options for the SBC, they're cheaper to obtain, and typcally have more flow potential, especially for the simple bolt-on applications.

When we talk durability, if you have had the opportunity to work with engines built around factory blocks on both sides the question of durability between a SBF vs SBC should be a no brainer. Every block has a certain point where it says "enough is enough" and it pukes. That point just takes a little more effort to reach with the SBC.

I'm not bashing the Ford at all guys, I'll build anything I can get my hands on and have fun with it. I love to play with different platforms and combinations. What I'm trying to do is stir up a little discussion and get you to think outside the box a little. You can't condemn the guy for putting a SBC in his Mustang. Let him have his fun, try to help out, and see if you can learn something because it's a cool project.

[SLWB16hatch]

yea. thats what we are doing. its all to see what it will do. and yes, fact is chevys can be built for less money. and i'm not saying fords cant make power, cause i know a few guys who have built big big power with a windsor. but facts are, if you are building a 302, yea, you will have a relatively good hp motor for cheap. due to the fact ford put the 302 in so many cars, and the fact that mustangs are so popular alot of companies make parts for them. but a windsor is a different story. the number of people building a 351 is alot lower than the number building 302s. its supply and demand. but chevys are everywhere, and they were also so mass produced that you can get them for almost nothing. we built a 383 stroker, stock block with eagle internals. it had brodix heads, and spray. the car made 740hp 680 ft lbs torque on spray. and it ran for 5 years before being switched to a blower and the only thing we had to replace on the motor over an 8 year span was pistons due to driver error. :bigthumb but i don't beleive anything i hear. i believe it when i see it. and i've had plenty of first hand experience with chevy motors, and i've seen how well mustangs work with a few mods, so why not. in my eyes, if you have 2 mustangs, with the same supporting mods. and one has a sbf and the other a sbc, built for the same PRICE, the chevy has a clear advantage. Money is what it comes to. but this mustang is a toy, not a million dollar race car. so i guess we will see.

[graysonracin]

I think the Ford aftermarket for the mustang has made the ford engines closser to bang for the buck as a comparable chevy.

If it takes a 383 to run mid 12's who cares. I could do that with a mostly stock 302. AFR225s on a 351 block to make 350hp. Dont believe everything you hear. The chevy is not all that. Check out the Engine builders challange builds lots of fast fords and chevys.

well said, i like to stay with the sbf.

[Rick93coupe]

I'm only jealous of Chevy for 2 things, thats aluminum (pushrod) blocks and head bolts per cylinder.

Good luck with your project, it'll get down either way.

[Steves LX]

I have a neighbor that has a 91 GT with a 383 in it and 150 shot running 9.80's. It's a pretty nasty street car. He also had the balls to put bowtie power abreviated on his lisence plates.

[mustang8998]

I have a neighbor that has a 91 GT with a 383 in it and 150 shot running 9.80's. It's a pretty nasty street car. He also had the balls to put bowtie power abreviated on his lisence plates.

I saw that car, at E2O last Saturday. It's for sale too.

[rogers]

That's the closest I've heard to reality so far. You're on the right path!

Long story short, when it comes to making power...it all comes down to the numbers. If you have a set of heads that flow identical numbers, identical intakes, identical setup on the bottom end, and both tuned properly they should in theory produce identical power numbers. The reality of the issue is that there is no way we're going to be able to make all the flow numbers match perfectly on the two different platforms.

Now if you can actually build two identical setups like this, hands down you're going to spend less money on the Chevrolet. There should be NO question about that.

The most important component in determing the power potential will be the cylinder heads every time. Heads are the key to making power. If you look at the aftermarket for SBF vs SBC heads, you'll see why the SBC is so popular in street and race applications. The market is flooded with options for the SBC, they're cheaper to obtain, and typcally have more flow potential, especially for the simple bolt-on applications.

When we talk durability, if you have had the opportunity to work with engines built around factory blocks on both sides the question of durability between a SBF vs SBC should be a no brainer. Every block has a certain point where it says "enough is enough" and it pukes. That point just takes a little more effort to reach with the SBC.

I'm not bashing the Ford at all guys, I'll build anything I can get my hands on and have fun with it. I love to play with different platforms and combinations. What I'm trying to do is stir up a little discussion and get you to think outside the box a little. You can't condemn the guy for putting a SBC in his Mustang. Let him have his fun, try to help out, and see if you can learn something because it's a cool project.

oh boy if in fact your working on a pure breed race car and you looking to make all your power at the top then the sbc will carry the rpm ban futher in similar builds the advantage is the (i could be wrong) but the actual location of the port design in reference to the cyl where the actual mix quench and burn take place (i've had a few drinks so bear with me) the combustion chamber being relative to the path of spent gases also. it's an air pump get it in and get it out. ever wonder why ford moved the spark plug location on the gt40p's there's alot of things to take into consideration (i.e, the old K code and A code 289's the A code 225hp was a two bbl with heads that were within 5cfm of K code 271hp but the K code had a solid lifter cam and and adjustable rockers with 4bbl...) in building the perfect engine for one's car. sbc has been well thought out and improved on many times what about the newer sbc engines and why has ford always tried to make any power on the thier cly head design the only thing they have even come close to getting right are the latest 4v heads and the port design but why do we have to use a supercharger to make the kind of power that gm was willing to make readilly avalible to the last generation ls engines anyways alot comes down to cyl heads but the other factors that go into building one a such said engine is where the true mathmatics come into play. my uncles 400 sbc in a pro street style nova ran 12.20's with old 327 375hp camel humps okay so bigger is better right so on went a set of fully ported dart's and the car slowed down 2 10ths so more fuel right of came the victor jr single with a 850 holley and on went a weidlan tunnel ram with two 600's :eek: car slowed to the 12.50's and ran so rich it would burn your fuggin eyes out of your head the main problem was he never considered his comp ratio the 11:1's he had were great for the camel humps but the larger combustion chambers on the darts lowered it and he just kept adding fuel and just fugged it all up a little more tweeking and i think my bolt on gt may just dust his cheap sbc ass!!! i'll see if his car is ready in the spring never know i may just show up to see how his nova is running. good luck

[nskaats]

You might wanna repost that when you sober up :lol:. I'm not following the first part of that post :confused:

If your uncles car slowed down that dramatically when swapping out to bigger heads, I would think the ports were most likely too big and couldn't maintain velocity. Bigger isn't always better with head ports, ideally you want to best flow you can acheive from the smallest ports possible to keep port velocity high. The heads only need to be able to support the amount of airflow that the bottom end can move.

The engine was definitely over-carbed and needed some tuning. Two 600s are going to be way too much for that combination. An 850 CFM carb should be more then enough for a 400 cube small block.

[Steves LX]

I saw that car, at E2O last Saturday. It's for sale too.

Yeah I think he's asking like 15000 or something for it.

[8banger]

You might wanna repost that when you sober up :lol:. I'm not following the first part of that post :confused:

If your uncles car slowed down that dramatically when swapping out to bigger heads, I would think the ports were most likely too big and couldn't maintain velocity. Bigger isn't always better with head ports, ideally you want to best flow you can acheive from the smallest ports possible to keep port velocity high. The heads only need to be able to support the amount of airflow that the bottom end can move.

The engine was definitely over-carbed and needed some tuning. Two 600s are going to be way too much for that combination. An 850 CFM carb should be more then enough for a 400 cube small block.


Should be but.....I ran a 1050 dominator on my 422...and with a 950hp..the domi ran faster and 60 footed better...

Tunnel rams are for a high winding SBC not a 400 cuber ...Yes,,,agree heads where prob just 2 big,,,
but with alittle more compression,,,bigger cam,,matched to the head flow... :D

Heck my 355 in my old boo with 11.1 750 carb,,ran 10.60's all N/A........
I've always raced chevbies,,just flopped over to a ford a few years ago,,,just to play...I do remember when the Ford stuff was damn near double the cost of a chevy SBC build..but now is really not that much more...if any...Rotatings are about the same...aftermarket heads about the same and from what I've gathered,,,, start with a 351 block and H.P is gonna be close..

But Can't say I havent thought about it though(swapping in a proven combo of mine, SBC style.. :bigthumb....
Goodluck with it..

[rogers]

You might wanna repost that when you sober up :lol:. I'm not following the first part of that post :confused:

If your uncles car slowed down that dramatically when swapping out to bigger heads, I would think the ports were most likely too big and couldn't maintain velocity. Bigger isn't always better with head ports, ideally you want to best flow you can acheive from the smallest ports possible to keep port velocity high. The heads only need to be able to support the amount of airflow that the bottom end can move.

The engine was definitely over-carbed and needed some tuning. Two 600s are going to be way too much for that combination. An 850 CFM carb should be more then enough for a 400 cube small block.

ok i'm sober now and that was one hell of a post first off he's my wifes uncle but you got the overall picture but it seems i could never get that through to him and if his car stays the same my modular is going to kick his ass when we get a chance to line em up :lol:

[juiced347]

well he got the car for almost nothing. literally like 250 bucks. but the reason we are going with a chevy is cause you can literally throw a junkyard 383 together for less than the price of rebuilding a stock 302. chevy parts are easier to find, more companies make them, and they are cheaper to build. afr 225's run in the 1800-2100 dollar range. on a 351(if you find 1 in good shape) they should make in the 350hp range. a junkyard 383 in a notch is a mid-low 12 second car, for almost no money. i would like to build a big inch sbf, but it takes more money than i can provide, so i guess i'll settle with a chevy.....:bigthumb

my little cheap compression motor will go 12s with 289 heads and a hyd. cam

[nskaats]

Should be but.....I ran a 1050 dominator on my 422...and with a 950hp..the domi ran faster and 60 footed better...


A 422 cube small block making 950 HP isn't exactly a mid 12s combo like the 400 in question either. That thing moves a LOT more air than a mild 400 cube small block. In all reality a single 750 might be able to adequately feed his 400.

[8banger]

A 422 cube small block making 950 HP isn't exactly a mid 12s combo like the 400 in question either. That thing moves a LOT more air than a mild 400 cube small block. In all reality a single 750 might be able to adequately feed his 400.

Crap...Meant I ran holley 950H.P carb and switched to a domi(638HP 1 carb race gas)......and yes sounds like a very mild 400 and a 750HP should work fine....Its really more try it and see to me...Just ask Carl what hes 383SBC likes a 750 or the 950HP.....