Engine balance

[Steves LX]

Question for you guys. If you have a balance issue that is inside of the motor will it just vibrate bad at a certain RPM or will it be at every rpm? Mine seemed to develop a vibration yestarday for no good reason. What its doing is vibrating around 300-3500 and then it seems to get better and not vibrate as bad. This isn't just a little vibration either. It will damn near throw your hand off the shifter if your holding the shifter. It does this regardless if your driving or sitting still. Clutch in or out it still does it. Any Rpm below 3000 and its fine. Any RPM above 3500 and it starts to go away. I plan to tear into it tonight. Just kinda hopeing its not in the motor itseld. The motor only has maybe 2000 miles on it since I dropped it in. I alraedy checked my balancer and the rubber hasn't slipped and the fact it does it if your sitting still and just rev it up to 3000 or so the driveshaft cant be the issue its not turning then.

[Jeff88coupe]

Well...no real help for you. But I'd check to make sure the balance weight on the back of the flywheel didn't fall off. Also check plugs/wires....you may have a cylinder firing during that rpm window for some reason.

[Steves LX]

I will check the plugs and wires when I get home tonight. Yeah its funny how it just started out of nowhere. I have had a real small vibration for I dont know how long and yestarday I get in the car in the morning and pull out of my drive and start down the road and its doing what I described earlier. I drove it the day before and it was fine when I parked it.

[jfiscus]

How is your transmission mount?

[Steves LX]

The mount itself is alright as far as I can tell and everything is tight to include the motor mounts. I plan on pulling the tranny out tonight and jacking up the rear of the motor and firing up the car and reving it up to 3000-3500 and see if it still does it then.

[jfiscus]

Are your flywheel bolts tight?
With the tranny unmounted the motor will probably flop all over the place unless you have solid motor mounts, but even then...

[Steves LX]

Well I pulled my tranny last night and I jacked the rear of the motor so it was back to where it should sit and I tightened down the motor mounts and fired it up and the motor was smooth as silk. No vibration anywhere at any rpm from 1000-6000 RPM's. So now I assume something is going on in my tranny. Just dont understand why when it was still hooked to the motor and while sitting still it would vibrate something horrible at 3000 RPM's and higher. The transmission isn't turning then. The only other thing I can figure is maybe everything shifted on me somehow and it was binding somewhat and causing that vibration. I dont know, any ideas here guys.

[Carl]

The input shaft is still spinning...I can't remember if the t5 has a balance shaft or not...

[facemelter71]

I dont think the t-5 has a balance shaft.Also it could be a really bad pilot bearing or something with the clutch.My 86 did that with a bad clutch.It would damn near rattle your head off at a certain rpm.I also lost a fan blade on a flex fan that caused that to.My 89 coupe did it also with a blown apart stator in the converter.Well,it didnt move very well but it shook like hell.And isnt there some issue with the balancer completly spinning on the rubber part and it being really hard to tell if it did.Id line up TDC and check it out anyway.

[Steves LX]

Well if it is the clutch why would it do this with the the tranny in neutral. Just to rule out my tranny I stuck a fresh one in no miles at all on it and it still vibrates at tthe same rpms. Pulled the tranny back out and started the car with just motor and the vibration is gone.

[k062693w]

did you remove the clutch when you removed the tranny??
I'm with facemelter on the clutch problem..

[Steves LX]

Just a thought I am having not sure if this could be it or not. I bought this motor off of a guy who bought it from someone else. The motor had a balancer on it but no flywheel when I bought it. I put a new 50 OZ flywheel on it and a new 50 OZ balancer (perfomance products from down at Craigs.) The old balancer that was on the motor is a stock Ford balancer. It has 8 holes in it and it also has 3 divits in it on the one side. Performance clinic supposedly put this motor together a year or so ago before I bought it. Any chances that if it was balanced with that other balancer and a differn't flywheel that it is just now causing me some serious vibration issues?

[k062693w]

Could be if it is a 28 oz motor!!!!

[Steves LX]

did you remove the clutch when you removed the tranny??
I'm with facemelter on the clutch problem..

I have yet to remove the clutch. I did have the bell housing off today and nothing jumped out and slapped me . Everything seemed to look alright. I plan to pull it off though. The clutch and the flywheel are brand new. I just put them both on the car the weekened of May 10th. I just cant comprehend why the car ran great and then I go to drive it Tuesday to work and as soon as I pulled out my driveway it was doing this. I also cant comprehend as to why when the motor is in all by itself and I start it w/ out the tranny you cant feel nothing up thru the seat or the car. But the minute you hook the tranny back up you can. And thats with 2 different transmissions and it doesn't matter if they are in neutral ,clutch in or out, it still vibrates!!!! :mad:

[Steves LX]

I took my balancer off this morning and the weight on the back side was lose. So I tightened it down and put it back on the car and started it and reved it up and now it starts vibrating around 5000 RPM's or so. I am clueless as to what the problem could be. I do know this much though if I can't figure it out soon it will be on the board here and craigslist for sale. I am done and so frustrated with this heap.:mad:

[Steves LX]

Forgot to add that my clutch and flywheel are in excellent shape. I'm starting wonder if this motor wasn't set up at zero balance and it is just now acting up on me.

[ibstrokin]

I doubt it, if your balancer combo was wrong, you would have known instantly.

[Rick93coupe]

Does it have solid motor mounts in it? Just curious, this has me thinking.

[Steves LX]

Does it have solid motor mounts in it? Just curious, this has me thinking.

No it does not. It has a set of 93 convertible mounts in it that I bought from Advance Auto Parts back in January. I am out of ideas other than something internal. Its just weird how last Monday everything was fine when I parked it. The only thing I did after I parked it Monday night was put a fan controller on for my electric fan. I reved it a few times to get the motor warm to make sure the controller would work right and I shut it off. I go out Tuesday morning and as soon as I get out of my driveway and take off in 1st gear as soon as it gets to 3000 Rpm's it starts this wild vibration that damn near kicks your hand off the shifter. And like I have said in alll the other posts. It does it sitting still, clutch in, clutch out it doesn't matter. Swapped trannys and still same vibration. Found lose weight on balancer tightened it up and now the vibration has moved up to around 5000 instead of 3000. I put a stock balancer back on it and it still vibrates around 5000. Pull tranny out and you cant feel it no more. Flywheel and clutch were all tight and they look great. No heat cracks or nothing. Pilot bearing seems to look normal also.

[fst 5pto]

Well if you take the trans out again I would change the pilot bearing regardless.

[Steves LX]

Well if you take the trans out again I would change the pilot bearing regardless.

I looked at my pilot bearing yestarday and the day before and it feels alright and looks alright but I plan on replacing that. I am just praying its nothing internal. I really dont want to pull this motor and I definitely dont have the money to go thru tearing the motor apart and putting new bearings in it and all that fun stuff.

[fst 5pto]

It just seems weird it does it without the trans in the car but a new trans that is fine still creates the issue. Almost seems like the flywheel or clutch....

[Steves LX]

It just seems weird it does it without the trans in the car but a new trans that is fine still creates the issue. Almost seems like the flywheel or clutch....

Well the clutch and flywheel look as good as the day I bought them. I am really thinking something has come apart inside the motor. Not really sure what but I have tried everything else I can think of. I haven't pulled my plugs yet to see if one is burnt or collapsed but if that was the case it would have a miss and the car doesn't sound or feel like it has a miss.

[fst 5pto]

Can you get a different balancer for it? I know you said you bought a new one but just to make sure? I had this promlem shortly after I installed nitrous on my car and it did exactly what you said....

[facemelter71]

Might want to check those vert motor mounts.Don't those raise the engine like an inch or something.Maybe its putting the tranny on a bind.

[Steves LX]

Might want to check those vert motor mounts.Don't those raise the engine like an inch or something.Maybe its putting the tranny on a bind.

Actually it lowers the motor about 1 inch or so.

[facemelter71]

Ok i wasnt sure.But now i do.I might even look into that for myself.

[12seclx]

I had convert mounts for a while and the drivers' side ended up being torn on me after a while... Couldn't see it til' I took it off the car.. I love the energy suspension stuff... From what I remember, it leaves everything in stock location and it'll be a long time before my "pooch of a motor" tears them...

I'll trade ya motors.... (mine doesn't vibrate) :wave:

:bigthumb

[Timido]

I would try a new ballancer first also.

[Steves LX]

Well different balancer does nothing for it. So tonight I am pulling the motor out and tearing it down. If all my bearings look O.K. and all I do is have the rotating assembly checked for balance can I slap this block right back together or am I going to have to check clearances and all that fun stuff?

[fst 5pto]

What heads are you running? And it is always a good idea to check clearances regardless.

[Steves LX]

I am running GT-40Y aluminum heads.

[12seclx]

Well different balancer does nothing for it. So tonight I am pulling the motor out and tearing it down. If all my bearings look O.K. and all I do is have the rotating assembly checked for balance can I slap this block right back together or am I going to have to check clearances and all that fun stuff?

You still gonna make the UMTR race? :screwy:

[NXcoupe]

Well, as we spoke on the phone the other day, I did not build this engine. Just want to get that out there, sorry the guy told you that. As for a vibration coming out of nowhere, it isn't going to be a simple pull apart and put back together, something has come apart in it. I will be happy to inspect it free of charge for you when you get it out. Once it is apart, we can determine who built it, I am suspecting it was the other place you mentioned, but we all mark our stuff, so we will know for sure. Did you ever get the plugs pulled out of it?

[Steves LX]

Hey Mike yes I did. I was actually going to clear that up on you not building this. The plugs as I suspected looked fine. My plan is to get it out tonight and tear it down and look at it and see if there's anything obvious. I just hope whatever it is it's minor and not something that's going to cost me an arm and a leg. I know it might not sound like much to some people as far as engines go but I already have close to 2500 in this. I dont want to have to spend much more on this thing. But I guess you gotta do what ya gotta do.

[Steves LX]

Hey Mike I just want to apologize for not getting that cleared up quicker. Now looking back I should've just PM'd you or spoke with you instead of putting that on the board. I meant no harm by doing that I was actually pretty charged when I was told that because I have heard nothing but good things about you and we all seen for ourselves what the Pinks car did. I will get the motor out tonight and see you tomorrow.

[ibstrokin]

I'm no expert, But I doubt there would be a internal issue if the problem went away once the tranny was pulled. I would suggest you take it to Mike with the car running, and let him feel what the vibration feels like. Taking the engine apart would be the last thing I would do. But your working hard to sort it out, so do what you feel is best. I've heard before that some dealerships have equipment that can isolate a vibration, not sure though. Good luck

[89notch]

I'm no expert, But I doubt there would be a internal issue if the problem went away once the tranny was pulled. I would suggest you take it to Mike with the car running, and let him feel what the vibration feels like. Taking the engine apart would be the last thing I would do. But your working hard to sort it out, so do what you feel is best. I've heard before that some dealerships have equipment that can isolate a vibration, not sure though. Good luck

:agree:

[Steves LX]

I'm no expert, But I doubt there would be a internal issue if the problem went away once the tranny was pulled. I would suggest you take it to Mike with the car running, and let him feel what the vibration feels like. Taking the engine apart would be the last thing I would do. But your working hard to sort it out, so do what you feel is best. I've heard before that some dealerships have equipment that can isolate a vibration, not sure though. Good luck

Well I think the whole issue of it vibrating when the tranny is in there is the whole harmonics thing. The input shaft is now in the back of the motor with the tranny hooked up and its taking the vibration and throwing it even closer to the passanger compartment. Hey that would be great if indeed we dont find anything on this but after talking with Mike on this you just don't develop a vibration like this out of nowhere and not have something going on. I am pretty confident I have isolated any other problems it could be. Trust me Brian I am still beside myself on why you can't feel nothing with the tranny out of the picture. If nothing else I will have the peace in mind that its not the motor after tomorrow night. But I have a sneaky suspicion that it is. We"ll see and I will keep everyone posted on what we find. Thanks everyone for all your advise and help.

[Steves LX]

Well I just finished getting the motor out of the car and on the stand. I pulled the oil pan off and the residual oil left in the pan was bronze in color and there is metal shavings. Can't quite tell where from but never the less they're there. So I guess tomorrow I will find out exactly whats goin on with this thing.

[Rick93coupe]

Whats the distributer gear look like?

[12seclx]

Man, that sucks...

[Steves LX]

Whats the distributer gear look like?

It looks fine. Actually everything looks fine the way it sits all together. If I had to guess its bearings that were eaten up and I would guess it all relates back to balance.

[NXcoupe]

We pulled it apart last night, I'll let Steve post up what we found.

[Steves LX]

We found some souveniers. The rear main bearing was absolutely trashed. It's amazing it didn't spin and trash the block. There was another one that was pretty close to being the next one to go. I beleive there was 2 or or 3 rod bearings that had brass showing. It appears as if someone put this together in their backyard while drinking a case of beer and playing cornhole in between. All the clearances were way too tight. The crank wouldn't even turn by hand with only a couple pistons in the block still. The crank has apparently been turned before because I was looking at the main bearings last night when I got home and they are .020 under. I am just thankful I parked it when I did. Beyond that at least what I have is salvagable just sucks that someone would do this kinda shady ass work. Two months this motor has been on the road that's it and already time to rebuild it. $1500.00 in machine work right out the door. Blows my damn mind.:mad: The engine is not a 306 either it's a 311. Its been bored .060 over. It's a stock block at that. Mike reassured me that if I was spraying 125 at 12 degrees base with only a half a step colder plug that if one of those cylinder walls was going to go it would have done went. My plan is to put 150 to it with a NX wet kit. I' ll be sure to go 2 steps colder and pull some more timing out of it. And as far as the cam goes, lord only knows what that is. We found a part # that doesn't match any manufacturers that we could think of that make camshafts. We tried doing a google search on it also and came up with nothing. Mike it was nice meeting you last night and once again I thank you for your time and help on this nightmare that some doushbag created for me. I am also curious as to how much power and torque this thing was hiding from me due to all the tight clearances and drag and friction it was putting on the whole rotating assembly. I'm sure it's not much but ya never know.

[92BlackStang]

now we all know why your mph and et was off .. Id say that had something to do with it

[facemelter71]

60 over is gettin pretty thin.I would say thats where your cooling issue is coming from to.I would cut your losses and find a different block.You wont have anything but issues with that one.And 20 under on a crank.WOW.

[Steves LX]

Well I dont have access to another stock block that's going to really save me any money. All I have at the house is a 306 with a sleeve in cylinder #5. I have some TRW pistons for it but all the rods need reconditioned and a couple of the skirts are rough on them. I am weighing all my options here. You are right on the cooling part. I am sure if I put my shroud back on or get a dual fan it will probably help that issue a lot.

[facemelter71]

Ive got a stock 40 over block down at the machine shop if its still there.Do you have anything your willing to trade for it.

[Steves LX]

Ive got a stock 40 over block down at the machine shop if its still there.Do you have anything your willing to trade for it.

O.K. I really dont have much to trade right now but if I use the block you have then I need new pistons that are .040 over. I am spraying 150 so I want forged pistons. I assume you're talking bare block correct?

[92BlackStang]

O.K. I really dont have much to trade right now but if I use the block you have then I need new pistons that are .040 over. I am spraying 150 so I want forged pistons. I assume you're talking bare block correct?

if i was you i would find a cheap explorer block find you some forged pistons and throw it back together

[facemelter71]

Yea its bare.Well,kinda.I have the pistons and rods at home.Let me check them out.I know that they are speed pro.As of part numbers and forged,I dont know.But ill get back to you tomorrow.

[Rick93coupe]

I'm with these guys, I would just keep my eyes open for an explorer motor, they go fairly cheap these days. Sell the heads off of it, and run what you have now. I wouldn't want a .060 over 302. The blocks are fairly weak as they are, and thats definitely where your cooling trouble is coming from. .040 is really the limit you should go with a 302, I've heard that from multiple machine shops.

[ibstrokin]

I hate to hear that Steve, You may want to pm banginggears, he has my old mexi block, I'm not sure if he's using it, and it's .030 over. It would be a great block to build. Good luck getting it back together.

[92BlackStang]

Like he said buy an explorer motor sell the heads and intake etc.. Get some money back and throw it back together and it should be fine. at least you will know for a fact what you have and it should run just as good if not better, Id also talk with mike about what camshaft is good for your setup. You should pick up some et there so maybe this happened for a reason just sucks you was out so much money and got jerked around with the motor you have now.

[NXcoupe]

If he didn't have a fan shroud on, his cooling issues could have come from that. His current block has almost no core shift in it, which is rare on these 5.0's. I would just stick with what worked in the first place and just put it together right with a good cam, like we talked about. Just my .02's worth, there are some good suggestions in this thread, think about your options.

[Rick93coupe]

Or, you could buy the stolen block with the anderson cam in it. ;)

[12seclx]

I'm gonna second the notion to get an explorer shortblock...
I know they don't have forged pistons, etc. but I think they got a
bad name from a lot of the guys that "slapped on a nitrous kit" then
go out there without having it tuned and ran it lean...

Keep it fat and it should live...

That's just me though and i've had good luck with junkyard stuff....

Shoot, if it was me, I'd buy a junkyard "hot-rod" suv motor, upgrade the valve springs, rockers, get a good camshaft, and sell the gt40y heads & tfs intake etc. and be rollin' again for pennies on the dollar compared to what your lookin' at gettin' your old motor rebuilt...

It only took me one time of going through that built motor carnage/drama to follow "bangingears" idealogy.... :D

[Steves LX]

Yeah Curt I couldn't agree more with you. I am going to try to get to Kil Kare on Thursday. Come on up on Thursday and see if ya can't hang just one time motor to motor. Now ya know I am just messing with you but on a serious note I wouldn't mind running each other just once to see what the new Annihilater has.:lol::lol::lol:

[12seclx]

Yeah Curt I couldn't agree more with you. I am going to try to get to Kil Kare on Thursday. Come on up on Thursday and see if ya can't hang just one time motor to motor. Now ya know I am just messing with you but on a serious note I wouldn't mind running each other just once to see what the new Annihilater has.:lol::lol::lol:

That would be fun.. win or lose...

I promise to behave and not tap the brakes at the 1000' mark...:cool1: