Unions in the 21st Century: Still Needed or Hindrance to progress?

[69428SCJ]

I figured after reading the "go figure" thread I figure maybe this topic deserved it's own thread. So, let's disucss the topic here? I'll add my thoughts later...

[99Slobra]

CWA ftw..

Cheap benefits and protection is nice.

[cobrajoe]

I.B.T/G.C.C. Local 128N
(International Brotherhood of Teamsters Graphic Communication Conference)
20 yrs

[snotzs135]

Local 336 Hell yes Unions are good:bigthumb

[69428SCJ]

woo, that's great...you guys belong to a union but you haven't told me whether or not unions are needed nowadays

[cstreu1026]

I haven't had a singe positive experience when it comes to union so yes I think in a lot of cases they have out lived their usefulness.

[junk89lx]

my experience is unions are needed but need to be reorganized and ALL need to stick together. if we were a non-union shop we would be replacing people daily(like they did for 14 months) because of my union i was locked out BUT because of a union i still have a good paying job.

[Goober]

But in this day in age, companys still fire people for unnessary reasons. Case in point, about 6 weeks ago, there were 2 individuals at work who were terminated for leaving 2 hours early on a saturday. Some clause about not notifying their team advisor (aka: supervisor, or "Bird dog", as we say in the biz).

Upon furthr invstigation (after said termination), that the T.A. was no where to be found (not in his department performing his job dutys) for appx. the last 4 hours of the shift. How are you to ask if you can leave early when you have your man assignment done and there is no more line moves that day (they would have been sitting idle for the last 2 hours)?

I will agree that the union isn't as needed AS MUCH as they were in the past, but they still need to be around to protect the rights of the worker.



Oh, and they both got thir jobs back, with back pay and all overtime that was missed.

[5.0calypso93lx]

I haven't had a singe positive experience when it comes to union so yes I think in a lot of cases they have out lived their usefulness.

I agree. Ugh, I hate this topic...

[Maximus]

Unions would be great........OVERSEAS!

Lets see the Union reps earn their paycheck by helping out the hard working Chinese worker.:chicken:

[leroy93lx]

I am a UAW member. I like that im guaranteed my raises every six months. The pay is great too but my biggest issue is that they protect pieces of shit that dont come to work. FMLA abuse is a huge issue in my shop. And the union suggest to the people with attendance issues to get on it if they can! So the people who show up for work get screwed into excessive overtime to cover somebody elses shift. Im 50/50 on unions honestly. With the auto industry the way it is now it helps me because of senority. We have have alot of layoffs but it hasnt affected me. YET!! Im glad i still have a job! Union or not

[BigBadStang]

International Brotherhood of Teamsters, Local 100.

There are good, and bad things about unions. Like others have said, it's nice to have someone that can go to bat for you when a supervisor doesn't like you, and has a hard on for you and your job, and terminates drivers for having a deer run under the trailer, having a bird hit the windshield, getting rearended, and on, and on. They also help in protecting guys jobs with seniority that are approaching retirement, and the company tries to fire them for ANYTHING to get out of paying the pension and benefits that were AGREED upon by both the company, and the union. Our union also keeps the company from sending hourly workers home, and using salary supervisors to do our work.
But on the bad side, is the mismanagement of union dues/funds, lack of representation on matters the union deems "meaningless" that effects workers daily lives, and the "over representation" of certain members that abuse the system, and take advantage of everything from alcohol/substance abuse, to mental disorders, and by throwing down the race card. Both sides of the coin can e frustrating, but I would rather have one, than not...even though our local is quite gutless at times.

[Mista Bone]

BBS, ask why your local won't it step down the street to SYSCO.......oh wait, we were in with the corrupt "bread" side of things with Klosterman.

BBS, if you look on the wall of past Local 100 presidents, you'll see the name Ken Watson.

Union is good for maintaining your rights, senority, keeping outside min. wage labor from doing your job. But there is the other side of union members ABUSING the rules. I've been on BOTH sides. Either playing the game or a victim of the game.

1985-1999 UFCW Local 7
1999-2004 Teamsters Local 7a (or was it 117?)

Sorry if I get the numbers from, but for 19.5 years I was union.

Union works GREAT if both sides are open and willing to discuss issues, like right now the unions accepting a wage and benefit freeze if the economy is hurting the company. But when it all turns around the gains are shared.

Anyone been on a contract committee? I have, not pretty. I did my research of numbers going in, knew the company was SCREWED (Thank you Mr. Linder) but a wage cut was not acceptable. Everyone in the plant wanted $$$$, company to cut our pay ALOT, we walked out with a 1 year wage AND Benefit freeze, better monthly automatic 401K contributations plus a 50/50 match up to 3%.

People hated me then, but now they might understand WHY it was important.


Sorry, another mindless ramble.......if you can't follow my train of thought, too bad.

[Black92LX]

depends on the industry

[Pops Fun]

Hi
I have never been in a union so this is from the outside looking in. Unions were a defining institution in the beginning but have gotten bogged down in the hear and now! My biggest grip is the mentality.. you can't change a light bulb or we will write you up... Unions and some members are there own worst enemy. They should not protect people that don't work.
I hate the fact that they are still needed but I wish they would clean up there act.
Steve

[mach_u]

Hi
I have never been in a union so this is from the outside looking in. Unions were a defining institution in the beginning but have gotten bogged down in the hear and now! My biggest grip is the mentality.. you can't change a light bulb or we will write you up... Unions and some members are there own worst enemy. They should not protect people that don't work.
I hate the fact that they are still needed but I wish they would clean up there act.
Steve
I agree completely. Yes they serve some purpose in some industries but unfortunately in a global economy, I believe they continue to decrease our ability to stay competitive, especially with the likes of China. I agree with Craig, we have enough policies in place to protect workers in this country - hell the government is nice enough to define minimum wage for us, amongst other things. China could definitely benefit from unions but until they decide to utilize them, I believe they have for the most part, outlived their usefulness in this country.

[BigBadStang]

BBS, ask why your local won't it step down the street to SYSCO.......


Lol...Mista, they probably won't go over there because, with the current officials running the 100 right now, that would require a little "leg work", and effort. I really don't care for the 100. The officers elected this last time, were the same old lazy fucks that have been in there for a long time. everyone I have talked to claims they didn't vote for them, but they miraculously were re-elected.
Some of them have this big sense of "entitlement", and tell some of the new guys that they should "just feel lucky to have this job", when they are being fucked with by management during probie periods. They treat the new guys almost like "you haven't paid enough union dues yet...after you pay 5 years worth, then we'll see what we can do for you."
JMO.

They are far from perfect, but the company I work at, new, young "gung-ho" supervisors like to try and get people fired for anything to make a name for themselves. They think they are on the way up the ladder, and don't care who they step on to get up it.
So in my case, even with it's flaws, I would rather have the union, than not.

[99Slobra]

In my Industry the CWA protects sellers during slow months. Also protects us from Area managers that are insane.

[leroy93lx]

I agree completely. Yes they serve some purpose in some industries but unfortunately in a global economy, I believe they continue to decrease our ability to stay competitive, especially with the likes of China. I agree with Craig, we have enough policies in place to protect workers in this country - hell the government is nice enough to define minimum wage for us, amongst other things. China could definitely benefit from unions but until they decide to utilize them, I believe they have for the most part, outlived their usefulness in this country.

In the auto industry that holds very true. Sadly.

[RIXXX93GT]

Sorry guys, Im sure there are many times a union is very good but I have supplied many auto assembly plants and its easy to realize why a new pos car costs 25k. This is a global economy like it or not, its the tip of the iceburg or the start of a long down hill spiral for the american worker, until the cheap labor countries workers start demanding more pay which will happen we are screwed.

[69Cobra]

I posted this over on the "go figure" thread.

I can say this. I'm a Union Master Electrician out of Local 212 and can't imagine what it would be like to try and pay the bill with anything less than what I make now. In 1995 I went straight into the trade right out of high school and after going through a 5 year apprenticship and specializing in motor control, temp. controls, PLC automation I don't know anything else. I've now moved up to a the head project manager/estimator and run the day to day operations in the field. So now I not only make above scale I also have been supplied with a vehical, phone, and gas card for the last 8.5 years. My job is to make sure the company makes money period and that's what I do. Even paying all our guys a hourly package of $42/hour I still bring my jobs in at a 25% margin. I bid against non union contractors everyday that pay their guys $10-15/hour and on bid day our numbers are not that far apart. So you can imagine who is making more money and its not us. Anyways I could go on and on about my opinions here so I'll just stop.
I also agree that it depends on what industry you are talking about. I can only give you my point of view which is from the construction industry.

[69Cobra]

Unions would be great........OVERSEAS!

Lets see the Union reps earn their paycheck by helping out the hard working Chinese worker.:chicken:

Alright dude I don't get a chance to bust your ball very often so I'm going to take advantage of it.:lol:

You don't seem to be a fan of unions but you relied on a skilled union electrician to wire your shop (John H):rolleyes:. So next time just ask any of those kids walking down the street with their pants falling off if they would be interested in burning your shop down... I mean... wire your shop.:eek::lol::popcorn:

[69428SCJ]

So why is it that UAW is killing the Big Three and bogging them down with HUGE legacy costs while Toyota is non-union, offers comparative wages and health care? While I haven't worked directly for toyota, I've toured the plants in ky and it sure doesn't seem like there needs to be an auto workers union. If Toyota can manage along just fine without one, what's the UAW so scared of? I mean, heaven forbid they actually try to help the company that employes its members....:rolleyes:

[69Cobra]

Again I can't speak for this industry but what do you think would happen to the salaries of the Toyota workers if there wasn't the UAW for them to be competitive with? My guess is they all would be working for minimum wage. I believe that is what would happen to any of the industries if they didn't have to compete for their workers. Something else to consider... my company doesn't do a job without a contract and most don't. So why should you or I work without a contract? Its just an agreement between the two sides. If it wasn't for the unions fighting for the labor laws that we have now we wouldn't know what a weekend is.

[BigBadStang]

It's not all the union. There are many other factors that are hurting the US auotmakers. What do you think the foreign automakers will do in the US if federal, state and locals start enforcing the taxes that are being put upon the domestics? What will the foreign automakers do when their US workforce starts to reach retirement age, and their legacy costs spike? (I'm sure they have to offer some type of retirement benefits to remain competitive in the employment market.) I'll tell you what they will do, THEY WILL PACK UP AND AND GO ELSEWHERE... BANK ON IT. You shouldn't blame all the US automakers woes on the UAW.

[cstreu1026]

I don't know exactly how the UAW retirement plans work but I doubt that Honda, Toyota, etc. will find themselves in the same situation. They have been able sit back watch what not to do as demonstrated by the big 3.

[PaulFiveOh]

Here is a 19 year old perspective:

If I start a company from the ground up, I slave and labor to get the company going and off the ground....If I do so successful that I need to hire 500 people....I want the final say. I don't want some collaboration of some smarter than average worker bees organizing and start demanding things.
It's bull shit, I hired you (or started the process that makes you needed), I should be able to fire you as quickly as I want. I mean, "At Will" employment is a double edged sword. Even if I am treating you unfairly...leave. Find work else where, the next guy will take 10 bucks an hour all day long.
The way I see it, if you need a union for protection, you need to start achieving to get promoted or go to school so you can then be the person on top making the changes.

That being said, I have a question:
Do privately owned companies (or even entire industries) have unions?

[BigBadStang]

Here is a 19 year old perspective:

























That's about all I heard. :rolleyes:

[mustang8998]

From my perspective, yes some unions have their place. I'm a non-union truck driver and I work for a small company. I make damn close to union wages and I can walk into the owners office and discuss anything I'd like. Try that with the big union companies.

I'll agree, however, that were it not for the union wages out there, I probably wouldn't make the kind of money I do. I had many opportunities to get on union companies, but some of those companies no longer exist. Even tried a job at Roadway, I hated it!

I guess my point is, it's up to the individual. Is it good for country and economy? We will see, in the long run.

[04 Venom]

With only 7% of the private sector workforce represented by unions, many people's opinions, including some here, are based upon other persons' second and third hand accounts, which they heard from a source even further removed form the actual source--if there ever was one. I have been a member a union and my employees are represented by one. I would say, from a personal standpoint, it has been good for both of us.

It is popular to blame the UAW for the demise of the auto industry, which, I believe misses the point. No one forced the companies to agree to the contracts; they obviously believed they could stay in business or they wouldn't have signed them. It is fair to say that the legacy costs (pension/health insurance) are hurting the Big 3, but those commitments were made decades ago when the domestic makers were in a much better competitive position. Now if you worked at a place for 30 years, is it fair to say to that person, sorry we are no longer competitive and we can't pay you a pension and health coverage you worked for. The simple answer is there is no answer other than the auto companies have offered buyouts to substantially reduce the legacy costs.

Also, is it fair to blame unions for the poor market decisions the automakers made, relying upon SUVs and trucks to make money and basically abandoning the small car segment to foreign makers? Is it fair to blame the unions for the short-sighted reliance on relatively cheap gas, when we all knew this day would come? If unions were the cause of a lack of competitiveness, someone better tell the European Union that they can't keep up, since most industries are organized, as is the Japanese automakers and the Korean auto industry. One of the main reasons our auto industry is competitively behind at the moment is that foreign automakers do not have to pay health insurance and have significantly less responsibility for pensions-- because government provides those benefits through taxes everyone pays. That is a huge advantage for many foreign employers in Europe and Japan. They pay much higher taxes than we do (and receive much more benefits), but it reduces the burden on employers

The odd thing is, that the cost of oil is starting to make it easier to build some things here than ship them from China. CNN carried a story last week that a furniture manufacturer in North Carolina re-opened 3 factories here because the cost of shipping the product from China was now greater than making the product here, even though wages are much higher.

If unions are so bad, why is the percentage of unionized workers in the service sector (now the largest segment of our economy) growing? As with many institutions, unions are as good as the people that lead them. I would say that overall, unions probably do a better job than many of our elected officials.

[PaulFiveOh]

That's about all I heard. :rolleyes:

That is because you must be an illiterate who could benefit from said unions.
Go Figure.

[Maximus]

Alright dude I don't get a chance to bust your ball very often so I'm going to take advantage of it.:lol:

You don't seem to be a fan of unions but you relied on a skilled union electrician to wire your shop (John H):rolleyes:. So next time just ask any of those kids walking down the street with their pants falling off if they would be interested in burning your shop down... I mean... wire your shop.:eek::lol::popcorn:

Oh since we are going there......

I paid John $_____ to wire up some things in my shop. He did a GREAT JOB! In fact I need him again. BUT the Union reps called John and found out he made $____!! So now he has to pay his Union reps:
$____ for a penalty fee, $_____non-union shop fee, and $____ for administration fees, and lastly a $___fee for re-education on why he should support his union.
Please note the above was sarcasm. :D
(except the part where Johns skilled were concerned...HE DID A GREAT JOB!:bigthumb

PFffftttt, have those kids walking down the street cant speak English, but Im sure they are hard lil workers. Now the other half, YIKES!!:eek:

As far as being a fan, Im on the fence. But when I hear customers telling me some horror stories of their Union protecting Low Rent Fucks who DONT want to work, show up late, Wont do their job, etc etc etc. Well, Im still waiting on the positive side.:popcorn:

[Mista Bone]

a good union offers due process, like in the case of termination or other disicpline.

Without a union, Craig, you could fire Jason for no reason and hire Rodney be because you like him better even if he does less work. If Cincy Speed was a union shop you'd have to atleast give a good reason, then basically sit down to a table (appeal) to work it out. Just using Jason and Rodney as names......

I see a Union about the same as a lawyer, you have good lawyers and crooked lawyers too.

Fire the low rent sorry asses that don't wanna work. You have to mantain a min. about of work to keep your job or your gone. Which is why I was fired from SYSCO.....but there were other issues at hand as well. Basically 20% increase in required productivity, I was the one who stood up to fight it, my case went to Federal mediator, I won. Only requirement was I pass a physical. Easy right????? Nope they changed the requirements right after my agreement that EVERYONE, including warehouse people had to pass DOT physical. Lets see, 7 months no insurance, BP was back to being high, no pass on the test. Union President QUIT in admist of controversy, like a few files (MINE!) were lost.

I didn't wanna go back anyways after all that mess.

Seniority is another biggee, Senior may, Junior must. This weekend for example. A company needs a skeleton crew to work Friday and Saturday, double time both days. Start at the top of the list and go down. Senior people may or may not work. If the required spots are not filled, the Junior people must be used to fill. Same way with scheduling vacations.

If you take a GOOD company with GOOD people, a union isn't really needed, almost invisible. You take a company thats likes to screw with people and loopholes in the contract, a good union is your only defense.

I've seen both, twenty yearsin a union.

Oh yeah, what about raises. Company is doing great, employees except a fair raise, reason the negotiate a contract. But company is greedy, making record profits, first contact offer is a $1 per hour cut and a three year wage freeze. Right now I could see it happening depending on the sector of business.

UAW, of hell I've heard some stories there. Basically some lines have a no layoff clause unless a WHOLE shift is eliminated. So you need 3/4 of a work force, but bring in everyone. You work 6 hours, sit and BS for the other 2 while on the clock!!!!!!

As an employee, fuck yeah that would be nice, screw the man!!!!!!
As a business, fuck the assholes sitting on their ass, either have them clean or do PM. Wait, can't do any PM work, thats covered by another union, can't help them even if they are behind and working massive overtime.

Damnit, 1 am and I didn't make my beer run!!!!!!! Sober mindless rant FTL :(

[69Cobra]

Oh since we are going there......

I paid John $_____ to wire up some things in my shop. He did a GREAT JOB! In fact I need him again. BUT the Union reps called John and found out he made $____!! So now he has to pay his Union reps:
$____ for a penalty fee, $_____non-union shop fee, and $____ for administration fees, and lastly a $___fee for re-education on why he should support his union.
Please note the above was sarcasm. :D
(except the part where Johns skilled were concerned...HE DID A GREAT JOB!:bigthumb

PFffftttt, have those kids walking down the street cant speak English, but Im sure they are hard lil workers. Now the other half, YIKES!!:eek:

As far as being a fan, Im on the fence. But when I hear customers telling me some horror stories of their Union protecting Low Rent Fucks who DONT want to work, show up late, Wont do their job, etc etc etc. Well, Im still waiting on the positive side.:popcorn:

Didn't happen and wont happen.

[69Cobra]

Here is a 19 year old perspective:

That being said, I have a question:
Do privately owned companies (or even entire industries) have unions?

Yes, I work for an electrical contractor that is owned by a husband and wife. I run the day to day operation of things... and this includes the hiring and firing. What you guys don't understand is guys make it easy for you if they are no good. I've never had to "dream up" a reason to get rid of someone. They either don't show up on time, don't get shit done or give me any reason not to trust him and if that's the case. BOOM their gone. Again I can't speak for any other industry but I can tell you this I/we don't put up with any crap. At the same time I/we have about 25 guys that are self efficient and take care of business and are very valuable to our company.

[BigBadStang]

That is because you must be an illiterate who could benefit from said unions.
Go Figure.

Dude, you need to relax a bit, get a sense of humor. You certainly are entiltled to your "perspective", just don't expect the masses to buy into a "perspective" from someone who has been in the work force a maximum of 3 years.
You, being a procalimed "Elitist", probably haven't been in the work force 3 years...had things handed to him by Mommy and Daddy? Just guessing.

You also may want to keep your incorrect, misinformed, stereotypical views to yourself, instead of calling out hundreds of thousands of skilled, experienced unionized people earning a good wage, illiterate.
If everyone took your perspective, few, if any skilled jobs would pay more than "10 bucks an hour all day".


So, take your 1 years worth of "adult world" experience, and shove it up your ass. If you still want to call me names, then I am sure we can discuss it face to face...just let me know, I'm just a PM, and a short ride away.

[k062693w]

:popcorn: :popcorn:

[RIXXX93GT]

Here is a 19 year old perspective:


That being said, I have a question:
Do privately owned companies (or even entire industries) have unions?

In response to this the answer is yes. Our company is privatley owned, we supply the "big" three. It was a requirement that we have a union because the assembly plants are unionized and they wouldnt allow a non union shop to supply them parts. So we had to actually go out and bring in a union. Our shop is an open shop which means you dont have to be in the union to get the same local representation. Unless a person simply stops coming to work and doesnt call it is very hard to fire someone. Sick days, doctors notes and the biggie FMLA have tied our hands so tight we can barely do anything.

[djom1cincy]

Ok guys. I've read all the post on here. I'm with local 392 pipefitters. I see the side of union and non union all the time. Big competition between the two sides with in our trade. Now that being said. I went through 5 years of schooling twice a week being in the apprenticeship. I must say that our work force is more skilled than that of our competition. I've been sent to jobs where the customer is willing to pay whatever the cost is to fix a job that a non union shop has completely messed up. That includes working around the clock with as many people as it takes to get it finished. In these cases the customer usually picked the non union shop to save money. But when that job gets messes up and the customer starts losing millions of dollars per hour they call in the guys that they know can get the job done. I know there are good non union workers out there. We have some of these guys that have been organized and are now part of our union and the company I work for. I learned a lot from these guys and would work with them anytime. The fact is a non union company can hire anyone off the street, pay them 10 dollars a hour and call them a pipefitter. We have the training and know how to get the job done. Now what side are you going to pick to work in your multi million dollar owned business.

As far as protection goes. Last night I worked 12 hours. 7 PM to 7 AM. Not my normal shift. I was paid double time even though I didn't have 40 hours in for the week. Part of our contract says if you work a shift not normal to your typical work day its overtime. My typical work day is 7 AM to 3:30 PM. Overtime pay goes from 3:30 to 7. After 7 double time starts. Now tell me how many non union company's would pay you time and half or double time not having 40 hours in for the week. Most wouldn't. They would charge the customer for the overtime but force there workers to work for straight pay. Now being a holiday week most people wont have 40 hours in for the week. The non union guy would have been screwed with nothing he could say or do about it. Why should someone have to work like that and not be paid for it or even fired for not working it? That where some of the protection comes in.

I'm not trying to say that unions are the best or greatest. I just think that there is still a need for them. If unions go away then anyone making over 15 dollars a hour doing construction or skilled labor can kiss there jobs goodbye. If I took a 50 percent pay cut I would be force to sell my house that only cost 135k and car just to live. You think the housing market and economy are bad now. Just image what would happen if unions went away.

[PaulFiveOh]

Dude, you need to relax a bit, get a sense of humor.

So, take your 1 years worth of "adult world" experience, and shove it up your ass.
If you still want to call me names, then I am sure we can discuss it face to face...just let me know, I'm just a PM, and a short ride away.

Oh come on, relax your self. Go fist fight some one else who cares.

Didn't mean to light you up.

So with that, I'll take my year of adult hood that is metaphorically shoved up my ass and say 'my bad' to you.

[BigBadStang]

Oh come on, relax your self. Go fist fight some one else who cares.

Didn't mean to light you up.

So with that, I'll take my year of adult hood that is metaphorically shoved up my ass and say 'my bad' to you.

Who said anything about fist fighting?
And since I'm the illiterate union worker, I should tell you "your self" is actually "yourself".

Have a nice day.

[69Cobra]

One thing I can say that is cool about what I do is. I've got to work/build Paul Brown Stadium, Great American Ball Park, did the remodel on the coliseum (sp?), work at all the Kellogg's from Mich, to Georgia, UC, NKU, UK, UD, Wright State, Wright Pat Air Force Base, and also Proctor and Gamble just to name a few.

[69428SCJ]

I'll continue to play devil's advocate here...

If unions were so good then why is it that unions demand for high wages have caused so much outsourcing and in turn lay offs?

[snotzs135]

because the company will out source what needs done ( going to be cheaper just a guess) lay off people save even more money not paying wages and benny's and slowly breaking union out of the shop just my 2 cents:rolleyes:

[04 Venom]

I'll continue to play devil's advocate here...

If unions were so good then why is it that unions demand for high wages have caused so much outsourcing and in turn lay offs?

The problem with your statement is that the vast majority of jobs outsourced during the past 15 years have been NON-UNION jobs.

[69428SCJ]

I never mentioned anything about the lay offs being union jobs did I? I just said due to unions wanting high wages jobs have been outsourced which lead to lay offs. Why do you think GM and Ford have plants south and north of the border?

[snotzs135]

thought maybe sense the post was about unions you where talking about union jobs sorry but that is one take on it they do away with union jobs to keep more money rolling into there pockets and not the workers doing the work( now i know that all companys need upper managment to keep working don't get me wrong and yes they work hard as well)

[RIXXX93GT]

It kind of makes me chuckle when people talk about executive wages in struggling companies like the big 3. Its a drop in a huge lake compared to legacy costs. Its not the problem...yea it doesnt seem fair and all but it has so little to do with the problems american workers and manufacturers are facing today. Health care benefits are an absolute outrage. The amount of money paid out for employer sponsored benefits like health care, 401k matching, dental, vision, prescription card are staggering. So that $23/hr wage is more like $40.

[djom1cincy]

I'll continue to play devil's advocate here...

If unions were so good then why is it that unions demand for high wages have caused so much outsourcing and in turn lay offs?


I've got a question for you. Why do you not like unions? Do you think union labor is overpaid? How much do you make? Maybe your over paid in other peoples eye's. Did you not get accepted into a union? Did they not have your Back? Its not the high wages that have caused so much outsourcing and lay offs. Its gready pockets starting at the top. They would rather pay some poor country's people 10 dollars a day with no benefits and import the products just to save a dollar a car. Lay offs can related to better robotics also. Why would they pay 2, 3, or even 4 people to do the job that one robot can do non stop? Now that fuel prices are going up you will see more shops and business opening back up in the U.S. because its going to be impracticle do to shipping cost.

[04 Venom]

I never mentioned anything about the lay offs being union jobs did I? I just said due to unions wanting high wages jobs have been outsourced which lead to lay offs. Why do you think GM and Ford have plants south and north of the border?

Wages are only part of the consideration and wage rates in the Canadian auto industry are equivalent to wages in the US. In Mexico, for example, in addition to lower wages, there are no equilvalent workers' compensation costs, much weaker environmental laws, lack of comparable unemployment benefits, no Social Security co-pays for the company, no FMLA laws, no ADA laws, little or no chance for civil suits based upon employment action, etc. The point I was trying to make is that many of the statements appearing in this thread are simply a repetition of stereotypes that are no longer true or were never true. You may agree or disagree with me, but I have learned something about the issue being involved with labor-management relations for the past 29 years.

[69Cobra]

I'll continue to play devil's advocate here...

If unions were so good then why is it that unions demand for fair wages have caused so much outsourcing and in turn lay offs?


I fixed your post for you. It looks as if all of the stereotypes here are based on the auto industry and again I can't speak for them. But I can tell you this. My wifes cousin has a company in Columbus and he builds gym equipment. He supplies some NFL teams and some Div. 1 NCAA football and basketball teams equipment. Now he was raised in a Union household with is dad being one of the higher ups in the iron workers union. Anyway he designed a piece of equipment and was going to put it in production. He had a non union fab shop about 10 miles from him that was going to build it and another shop a couple more miles up the road from him was going to powder coat them. That was it and it was still going to be cheaper for him to send the stuff to China to be built. So I don't see exactly where the unions have affected this. But I will agree with what someone else stated above about robotics. We design and install turn key automation systems this being robotics, ect...

[djom1cincy]

I go out and work at a plant in Blanchester once in a while. Its a huge plant called Showa right on 28 across from the school. They make shocks and steering parts for Toyota out there. That place has so many robots in there its not even funny. If I had to guess and this is only a guess. I'd say that at least 75% of the machines out there are robots. They employee a lot off people out there also. The only thing those people do load the parts for the robots to machine and qc.

[69428SCJ]

I've got a question for you. Why do you not like unions? Do you think union labor is overpaid? How much do you make? Maybe your over paid in other peoples eye's. Did you not get accepted into a union? Did they not have your Back?

To answer your questions:

1. I never said I didn't like unions, I'm playing devil's advocate for why unions are no longer needed.
2. My views on how compensation should be awarded are probably different than other peoples but when I see somsone who sweeps the floors (and that's all they do) and makes $70,000 a year doing so thanks to 30 years with GM I think it's a little skewed
3. There is no financial planners/advisors union I know of, so my earnings are irrelevant to this discussion...and even if there were one, I wouldn't join it.
4. I was a "member" of IUE 795 for a time in 2004. Had it not been for that union I wouldn't have worked at the GM Moraine plant then. I paid dues (not by choice), I could've voted in their election but was not an official member of the union since I was just summer help. So, I am gracious for me being hired in at $15.25 an hour working the night shift on friday and saturday nights but not happy about having to pay $200 to a union I didn't belong to. If you think the company is out to screw you anyway they can then you good sir should most definitely stay in a union where that seems to be the overriding sentiment when in fact the man really isn't out to get you. They probably did have my back but it's not like anyone was trying to dick me over, sorry for my lack of paranoia :dunno:

I don't know how many people have studied or taken labor relations and laws classes but I had to take a few to get my precious "I'm smart" paper but being involved with unions and studying them has led me to believe that their usefulness has come to an end. Examples of this are the pro sports unions. Seriously...does a professional athlete need to be paid MILLIONS of dollars and then strike because they aren't being paid enough? According to a January 2002 finding by the Dept of Labor, prepared by the AFL-CIO median weekly earnings of full-time eage and salary workers for a union member was $718 while a non-union member was $525, not a very large disparity. Labor laws have very far in this country since the Railway Labor Act of 1926 to prevent the exact reasons why unions were created from happening. While public sector (government) union membership has held steadily in the 80% area for decades, private sector union membership is down from an all-time high of 35% in the 1950s to just under 15% today according to the dept of labor.

Striking is also the most ridiculous thing someone could in my opinion. Yes I understand dues are there to help support you and your family if you have one while you're on strike and that you have the right to do so to demand better compensation, but look at what happened to the AK Steel guys...how long was that strike? Do you think some unions could pay their members wages for that long? Here's a grand idea, just continue working so that way you won't have to worry about "well, did the bargaining element get what they wanted or am I just going to continue picketing the company and hope my union dues continue to pay me until the strike is over?"

I personally did not want anything to do with IUE 795 while I was working at the plant. I wanted to keep "my" dues because I had no desire to be a member and it was taken out regardless of whether or not I wanted...so basically the union filled their coffers with the money of people that were there for 4 months tops. I'm a huge believer in open shop and right-to-work laws. I understand that the only way I was hired into the job I was was thanks to the union, but at the same time if I don't want to pay if I don't want to be a part of something. So, in closing I do believe that at one point in time unions were useful and served a purpose, but no longer. Labor laws have improved and private employers have grown smart enough over the years to eliminate the NEED for organized labor...but, that's just one man's opinion.

[Mista Bone]

When was this AK Steel STRIKE that you speak of?

Surely you don't mean the Middletown LOCK-OUT 3/2006-3/2007

[69Cobra]

Again two totally different industries but I can tell you that in the electrical industry local 212 the private employers understand the advantages or I wouldn't be working for one. Here's one small advantage. My company split from another at the end of 1999 so Jan 1 2000 we started all over from rock bottom and yes the owner could have went non union very easly. The owner not only split from his old partner but left with pretty much nothing. At the beging there was just 3 of us and we had to finish Paul Brown Stadium which was impossible to do with 3 guys. But being a union contractor we was able to call the hall and get as many skilled electricians that we needed without having to worry about their skills level. We went from being a 3 man shop Jan 1 to later that year up over 80 guys around the clock on a Kellogg's job. This gives you an advantage, even tho you are a small contractor you still have the ability to bid the big jobs and get the skilled man power to do them. Just one reason we are still a union contrator today. Can you imagine if a non union electrical contractor was to try that?

[djom1cincy]

To answer your questions:


According to a January 2002 finding by the Dept of Labor, prepared by the AFL-CIO median weekly earnings of full-time eage and salary workers for a union member was $718 while a non-union member was $525, not a very large disparity.

The way I calculate that it comes out to 193 dollars a week and 10,036 dollars a year. "NOT A VERY LARGE DISPARITY" at all. I know just about any middle class working family could use a extra 10k a year.

[snotzs135]

all i can tell you is in my line of work if it wan't for unions fighting for me and my fellow brothers and sisters we would be SCREWED! We have to fight like hell to try and keep what we have and get just a cost of living increase while the employer does eveything it can to take away most everything we have. I am not getting paid big money by any stretch of the imagination just what is fare and comparable I understand that healthcare is going up and we should all shoulder some of that cost and yes someone sweeping the floors making 70grand a year is bit out there unless its a big floor lol

[69428SCJ]

The way I calculate that it comes out to 193 dollars a week and 10,036 dollars a year. "NOT A VERY LARGE DISPARITY" at all. I know just about any middle class working family could use a extra 10k a year.

My apologies...I misquoted. The actual number is $575 a week, so that brings the difference to $143 a week and $7436 a year. I won't say that I don't know anyone that couldn't use the money but honestly, when I worked at GM there were people there that made a good $35-40 an hour doing the exact same things I did (yeah they'd been there for a while so I got the whole pay raise deal). If there is any confusion I want to clear it up now, I can't speak directly to non auto workers unions because I don't know their specific idiosyncracies but from my experiences with the uaw and iue I haven't seen much of a need for them any longer. My mom's dad was a member of a pipe fitters union for years and he used to tell me how corrupt they were (which is another reason why I believe unions are archaic) and yes I do recognize not all unions are corrupt that still doesn't negate the fact the unions more often than not only look out for their members and not the companies that employ their members.

[snotzs135]

You just said it the unions look out for the body of the union there brothers/sisters because usually the company doesn't and the company will
listen to the body alot quicker than the individual. Yes I know not all companys are that way so not all workers are union they have there place just like everything else :cool1:

[mustang8998]

But being a union contractor we was able to call the hall and get as many skilled electricians that we needed without having to worry about their skills level. We went from being a 3 man shop Jan 1 to later that year up over 80 guys around the clock on a Kellogg's job.

Seems to me, that there were at least 60 guys, sitting around smoking cigarettes and watching Captain Kangaroo. Guess they had nothing better to do?

JFWY!

[junk89lx]

[QUOTE=69428SCJ;389387]To answer your questions:

Striking is also the most ridiculous thing someone could in my opinion. Yes I understand dues are there to help support you and your family if you have one while you're on strike and that you have the right to do so to demand better compensation, but look at what happened to the AK Steel guys...how long was that strike? Do you think some unions could pay their members wages for that long? Here's a grand idea, just continue working so that way you won't have to worry about "well, did the bargaining element get what they wanted or am I just going to continue picketing the company and hope my union dues continue to pay me until the strike is over?"

A strike and a lockout are different in case you didnt know 69428scj . and my union didnt pay my wages,house payment,car payment,etc.. i got paid to picket and i was taxed on that(barely covered my gas)

[69428SCJ]

yeah, I know they're different...just slipped my mind that it was a lock out and not a strike. Maybe a better example I could've used was the GE Evendale plant strike during the 80s...

[04 Venom]

[QUOTE=69428SCJ;389387]To answer your questions:

Striking is also the most ridiculous thing someone could in my opinion. Yes I understand dues are there to help support you and your family if you have one while you're on strike and that you have the right to do so to demand better compensation, but look at what happened to the AK Steel guys...how long was that strike? Do you think some unions could pay their members wages for that long? Here's a grand idea, just continue working so that way you won't have to worry about "well, did the bargaining element get what they wanted or am I just going to continue picketing the company and hope my union dues continue to pay me until the strike is over?"

A strike and a lockout are different in case you didnt know 69428scj . and my union didnt pay my wages,house payment,car payment,etc.. i got paid to picket and i was taxed on that(barely covered my gas)

Check your facts first 69428scj. AK Steel locked their employees out and would not let them work for over a year in an effort to force the employees to accept their contract demands. The employees did NOT strike.

[Mista Bone]

They did authorize by vote a strike, but the company kicked them out before the contract expired.

[junk89lx]

They did authorize by vote a strike, but the company kicked them out before the contract expired.

So it was OK to lock us out when the contract expired? the employees where and some still are misled by union leadership.yet i still stand behind a union
I have worked most of my life Non-union and i got screwed more often than since ive been a union member..yes there are cases a person that does not deserve thier job back get it only to keep screwing up but with out the union safety is a non issue ..and as far as unions running jobs out of the U.S. its more the fault of trade aggreements and OSHA,EPA, guidelines that arent practiced in foreign countries..

[cobrajoe]

They did authorize by vote a strike, but the company kicked them out before the contract expired.

I'm sure your talking about authorizing a "STRIKE sanction"which the International requires to ensure it's a legitimate cause for a strike and to ensure strike benefits (part of what your dues pay for). The Sanction is almost always done before a contract expires and there has been no progress, a second vote then has to be taken to actually STRIKE. A LOCKOUT is a company move and is a unfair labor practice and is considered by the courts as the company declaring a impasse.

[04 Venom]

A LOCKOUT is a company move and is a unfair labor practice and is considered by the courts as the company declaring a impasse.

Not quite. A lockout used to be unlawful unless the employer could show that it had a legitimate fear of sabotage. As the law currently stands, it is not unlawful to lock employees out and run the facility with temporary replacements, which is what AK Steel did. The current law is, in my personal opinion, is deeply flawed; employers should not be able to lock employees out of the facility. Moreover, a lockout is not a declaration of impasse under the law.

[junk89lx]

There is a place in Jackson ohio that locked there employees out about a week after ak
and they stayed out about 16 months. when the contract was reached they brought them back in then had them shut down operations pack up and moved the company to another state. they still picket the empty building as of april and the usw is still making house and car payments for the ones that cant.. that is a good thing a UNION can do for you..

[Mista Bone]

I'm sure your talking about authorizing a "STRIKE sanction"which the International requires to ensure it's a legitimate cause for a strike and to ensure strike benefits (part of what your dues pay for). The Sanction is almost always done before a contract expires and there has been no progress, a second vote then has to be taken to actually STRIKE. A LOCKOUT is a company move and is a unfair labor practice and is considered by the courts as the company declaring a impasse.

Exactly. Normally used as a barginning tool to get both sides back to the table and hammer out a deal.

A strike benefits neither side in the long run.

[cobrajoe]

Not quite. A lockout used to be unlawful unless the employer could show that it had a legitimate fear of sabotage. As the law currently stands, it is not unlawful to lock employees out and run the facility with temporary replacements, which is what AK Steel did. The current law is, in my personal opinion, is deeply flawed; employers should not be able to lock employees out of the facility. Moreover, a lockout is not a declaration of impasse under the law.

What law are you looking at? Because when I went to a Ohio State (Yes the College) class on Collective Bargining principles it most certainly did not state that.

From The NRLA
In summary, there are two major guidelines for evaluating whether a lockout may constitute an unfair labor practice. First, to justify a lockout, an employer will usually be required to show that it has a legitimate business reason for the lockout. Second, a lockout of union employees cannot be motivated by anti-union animus or be retaliation for engaging in a protected activity.

"whether the employer can state a business justification for its actions. If an employer can show no legitimate and substantial business justification, the lockout is presumptively an unfair labor practice."

[04 Venom]

What law are you looking at? Because when I went to a Ohio State (Yes the College) class on Collective Bargining principles it most certainly did not state that.

From The NRLA
In summary, there are two major guidelines for evaluating whether a lockout may constitute an unfair labor practice. First, to justify a lockout, an employer will usually be required to show that it has a legitimate business reason for the lockout. Second, a lockout of union employees cannot be motivated by anti-union animus or be retaliation for engaging in a protected activity.

"whether the employer can state a business justification for its actions. If an employer can show no legitimate and substantial business justification, the lockout is presumptively an unfair labor practice."

The quoted portion regarding a substantial business justification requires nothing more than the employer's assertion that it is trying to bring economic pressure on the union to accept its proposed contract. So long as the employer has not otherwise engaged in unfair labor practices during the course of bargaining, its unilateral decision to lock its employees out in an effort to achieve a contract to its liking is not unlawful. Because of the NLRB's decision In Harter Equipment, Inc., 280 NLRB 597 (issued on June 24, 1986), the number of lockouts has increased significantly, particularly the past 10 years.

[Mista Bone]

Blame Reagan, his little stink with the air traffic controllers..........

[04 Venom]

Blame Reagan, his little stink with the air traffic controllers..........

Good point. Up until that point (1981), employers were far less inclined to permanently replace strikers, although they have always had the right to do so. Reagan made it "politically correct" so to speak.