Self Litigation - A journal.

[PaulFiveOh]

I will be litigating my 3rd speed offense since turning 18 (1.5 years).
My last self representation went with out a hitch and when I should have lost my license for 1 year, I did 24 hours of community service in stead, drawing it out 11 months. (Only hitch was when I forgot to show for a fines hearing)
You can see the docket entries here: http://www.clermontclerk.org/pa/munipa.urd/pamw2000.docket_lst?18723986


Any ways, for those who care, I will keep a journal of events relating to this ticket: http://www.courtclerk.org/ticketsearch_results.asp?68735901X14010233
It's nothing serious, but it will be my 10th point if convicted.

Hopefully, you guys can see what I am doing and apply to your tickets. Additionally, I may be able to learn a thing or two from you guys.

Worst case scenario here: I enter a not guilty plea, get found guilty, and get the original sentence of being fined $104 (+ $88 for court fees).

Best case: I get the charge dropped.

I'll keep you updated.

My first move is to show up at the May 15th court date and ask for a 2 week (maximum in Hamilton country traffic court) continuance. Upon returning, I will ask for one more, I may or may not get it. If I get it, great, the further out the better. If I don't, I'll plead not guilty. When they set the court date, I will immediately move it forward. Then, when I show up, I will ask for a continuance. (At this point, it will be with a different judge).....

Thats enough for now, I will keep you updated as it goes on.

[TZ250]

This will be a cool thread to monitor. I think most of the people hear can relate to you. :)

I once hired a lawyer for a speeding offense. (Spring time, new bike '99 R1, long stretch of road....) :rolleyes:

[DeckerEnt]

Good luck. Hope your tactic works.
Keith

[mustanginky]

good luck, but just slow down lol?

[facemelter71]

Ill second that,quit speeding and doin stupid shit.Then you wont have to continue dicking with the court system.

[5.0calypso93lx]

good luck, but just slow down lol?

Thats what I'm saying. Why not just obey the law, and not try and weasel out of something you obviously did wrong? I mean, unless you were honestly screwed over, and were wrongly accused. I somehow doubt that though, having almost 10 points already.

[PaulFiveOh]

I mean, unless you were honestly screwed over, and were wrongly accused.

I wasn't. This is honestly a game to me. I have the time, the means, and the basic knowledge to move forward with my own defense, so why not do it. It is a challenge to me and I welcome it.

Remember: The worse that could happen is I get found guilty.

[joemamma]

And waste taxpayer money.

[PaulFiveOh]

And waste taxpayer money.

Ooops.

You must of forgotten that the defendant pays court costs.

And that it is the job of the magistrates, judges, and bailiffs to hear cases.

[RIXXX93GT]

Ooops.

You must of forgotten that the defendant pays court costs.

And that it is the job of the magistrates, judges, and bailiffs to hear cases.

YOur just not getting this are you?

[PaulFiveOh]

YOU'RE just not getting this are you?

Apparently not. But I didn't ask for that type of input, so, I am not not interested.

[PaulFiveOh]

Update:

I pled not guilty and had my Non-Jury Trial today.

The Officer and the Prosecutor litterally walked up to me before they started calling cases and asked me "what I wanted to".
I replied that I would plead to a 0 points violation.
The prosecutor asked the cop if he would do 69 in a 65. He agreed, I agreed.
I was called, plead guilty the amendment.
Sentence was $50 plus court costs. This entire ordeal cost me $134.

Just FYI- The pay out on the ticket was $104 and automatic 2 points.

I would say, again, I made out like a bandit.

But to the rest of you simple folk who commented above: Have fun paying horrendous insurance and having to face the threat of losing your license and your job....you know...that's much more savory.


Updated journal entry: http://www.courtclerk.org/case_summary.asp?sec=history&casenumber=/08/TRD/25383

[IWRBB]

But to the rest of you simple folk who commented above: Have fun paying horrendous insurance and having to face the threat of losing your license and your job....you know...that's much more savory.

I'm with you on this. Nearly all speed limits are a joke. I get so pissed when stuck behind someone going the speed limit or less. I speed everywhere I go, except on residental streets with cars parked on the sides, that's where the kids pop out from nowhere. I prefer to do other things with my time besides commute at a lower speed than necessary.

Fight that shit! If everyone fought the tickets, there'd be no more tickets. I always fight tickets, even if it's through a lawyer and not in person. All the "you sped, so you should pay" people are crazy. Everyone speeds. Not everyone bends over and happily takes the ticket though.

[PaulFiveOh]

Amen brotha.

[JET50213]

While I congratulate you on your success....please consider this. Many, Many, Many crimnials do not get the justice they deserve because the courts are overworked. It IS NOT a game. I have no problem with someone working with the prosecutor to minimize the pain and suffering...but do not do it at the expense of the court. Sure, it is your right to have all of these continuances and crap....but it sounds like you were able to accomplish your goal without wasting extra time. It sounds like your original plan was to become so much of a PITA that the court would dismiss your charge to make you go away. Please do not use that tactic in the future. The guy who stole your car stereo or broke into your garage may use the same tactic....how would you feel about that? I know that speeding and theft are not the same thing....but that really doesn't matter to an overworked court.

[Timido]

You didnt plead your way out of the other 9 points you have on your licence? If I got a ticket I would fight it. If is the word here. I have 0 points on my licence I have only had 2 tickets ever.

[92StangMan]

I see no problem with what is going on. Out of the 9-years I have been driving, I've been pulled over six or seven times. A few of my tickets were taken care of by a friend in the police department and one them I showed up to court to see if I could get it reduced. It didn't take more than 30-seconds of negotiating before they said I would received zero points and the charge would drop from 15mph over the limit to 9 (9mph and under in WV doesn't go on your record). Ever since then I have fought every one and will continue to do so.

Speed limits really serve no purpose other than create another source of revenue for the city. Anytime I am on a road trip, I usually keep my speed between 80-90mph and sometimes between 90-100mph depending on the flow of traffic, time of day and if there are any cops out clocking people. I only speed on the interstate. Through residential neighborhoods and city roads, I do not speed and actually drive slower than the posted speed limit in a neighborhood. It doesn't take but a second for a little kid to run out in the road.

[PaulFiveOh]

While I congratulate you on your success....please consider this. Many, Many, Many crimnials do not get the justice they deserve because the courts are overworked. It IS NOT a game. I have no problem with someone working with the prosecutor to minimize the pain and suffering...but do not do it at the expense of the court. Sure, it is your right to have all of these continuances and crap....but it sounds like you were able to accomplish your goal without wasting extra time. It sounds like your original plan was to become so much of a PITA that the court would dismiss your charge to make you go away. Please do not use that tactic in the future. The guy who stole your car stereo or broke into your garage may use the same tactic....how would you feel about that? I know that speeding and theft are not the same thing....but that really doesn't matter to an overworked court.


First off, I want to thank you for arguing your point in a completely adult manor. It is refreshing to have a friendly discussion about this and not have the person immeaditly resort to calling me a "Faggot" because thats all they can offer.

If I may, I will retort:

You are correct in that my first plan was to be a PITA. You say that by doing that (or when many people like me do that) I may create a situation where someone who has committed a serious crime may enjoy the same 'experience' that I had.
My reply to that is that the above is their right my friend. By living in this wonderful country, it is the defendants rights to move forward with their defense how ever they see fit.
How refreshing is it that our country is so developed and so rich with moral fiber that even scum balls are represented equally and enjoy the same rights as millionaires?
Call me a patriot, but it is my DUTY to challenge these revenue collecting tactics.

Finally, the court that handles these, at most: handles M1 at the highest. The worst thing these guys can prosicute in that court are Drug Paraphernalia charges, D.C. charges, and etc. So I do not feel that by me doing this puts a burden on them.

I will say though, that the police officer from District 1 (I think. It's the one FURTHEST away from down town by Kellog ave) that he was probably very inconvenienced by having to show up, only so that I can enter a guilty plea. But my reply to that is: "Thats the cost of doing business."

What are your thoughts about that?

[PonymanfiveO]

FAGOT!!!!


lol j/k congrats Paul. I would have done the same. ;)




Originally Posted by IWRBB

I'm with you on this. Nearly all speed limits are a joke. I get so pissed when stuck behind someone going the speed limit or less. I speed everywhere I go, except on residental streets with cars parked on the sides, that's where the kids pop out from nowhere. I prefer to do other things with my time besides commute at a lower speed than necessary.

Fight that shit! If everyone fought the tickets, there'd be no more tickets. I always fight tickets, even if it's through a lawyer and not in person. All the "you sped, so you should pay" people are crazy. Everyone speeds. Not everyone bends over and happily takes the ticket though.

I agree totally. well worded. :bigthumb

[99Slobra]

Were you guilty of speeding?

[IWRBB]

Everyone here is guilty of speeding, every time they drive. That is irrelevant.

Some people just don't care about gettting tickets I guess. Are you telling me you do not have a problem with a cop pulling you over for 77 in a 65, when everyone around you was doing the same or faster? That's OK because you were "guilty of speeding"? In my book, that's 100% BS. Interstate speedlimits are artifically low and it's nothing but a way to generate revenue.

My personal peeve is the double fines and 50 MPH limits in "construction" areas that have no workers, finished pavement, new striping. They leave that 50MPH crap in place long after it's needed just to continue to write huge tickets. I-275 is a good example. The way it's set up today, there is NO reason for a 50 MPH limit westbound from SR42 to SR747. There is a 6' high concrete barrier the whole way and no work has been done on that side of the barrier in months.

[02mingryGT]

Everyone here is guilty of speeding, every time they drive. That is irrelevant.

Some people just don't care about gettting tickets I guess. Are you telling me you do not have a problem with a cop pulling you over for 77 in a 65, when everyone around you was doing the same or faster? That's OK because you were "guilty of speeding"? In my book, that's 100% BS. Interstate speedlimits are artifically low and it's nothing but a way to generate revenue.

My personal peeve is the double fines and 50 MPH limits in "construction" areas that have no workers, finished pavement, new striping. They leave that 50MPH crap in place long after it's needed just to continue to write huge tickets. I-275 is a good example. The way it's set up today, there is NO reason for a 50 MPH limit westbound from SR42 to SR747. There is a 6' high concrete barrier the whole way and no work has been done on that side of the barrier in months.

+2 on that whole post.

[Jaylynn]

hey - more power to you if you want to fight tickets

for me - i get a ticket about once every 5-10 years so it's not such a big deal. I agree with those that say if you get caught that much you're probably doing something wrong (like speeding way way too much or just very unlucky) so maybe it's just easier to change your behavior a little rather than keep having to go through all this trouble.

but like i said - to each his own - i just prefer to avoid the problem in the first place (and no, i dont' drive like a total pansey either)

[IWRBB]

hey - more power to you if you want to fight tickets

for me - i get a ticket about once every 5-10 years so it's not such a big deal. I agree with those that say if you get caught that much you're probably doing something wrong (like speeding way way too much or just very unlucky) so maybe it's just easier to change your behavior a little rather than keep having to go through all this trouble.

but like i said - to each his own - i just prefer to avoid the problem in the first place (and no, i dont' drive like a total pansey either)

I don't want tickets, I think we'd all prefer to avoid the problem in the first place. However, you getting a ticket once every 5-10 years (like most people) shows that's it's nothing more than a random driving tax. You obviously aren't driving crazy, yet they still ticket you every 60-120 months. It's all about money.

Both of the vechicles I drive have hardwired Valentine One detectors. I've had no tickets in either vehicle since they went in, never been pulled over either. I'm always tipped off to the traps and let others get those BS tickets that seem to happen every 5 years or so. V1 or nothing for me...

[JET50213]

First off, I want to thank you for arguing your point in a completely adult manor. It is refreshing to have a friendly discussion about this and not have the person immeaditly resort to calling me a "Faggot" because thats all they can offer.

If I may, I will retort:

You are correct in that my first plan was to be a PITA. You say that by doing that (or when many people like me do that) I may create a situation where someone who has committed a serious crime may enjoy the same 'experience' that I had.
My reply to that is that the above is their right my friend. By living in this wonderful country, it is the defendants rights to move forward with their defense how ever they see fit.
How refreshing is it that our country is so developed and so rich with moral fiber that even scum balls are represented equally and enjoy the same rights as millionaires?
Call me a patriot, but it is my DUTY to challenge these revenue collecting tactics.

Finally, the court that handles these, at most: handles M1 at the highest. The worst thing these guys can prosicute in that court are Drug Paraphernalia charges, D.C. charges, and etc. So I do not feel that by me doing this puts a burden on them.

I will say though, that the police officer from District 1 (I think. It's the one FURTHEST away from down town by Kellog ave) that he was probably very inconvenienced by having to show up, only so that I can enter a guilty plea. But my reply to that is: "Thats the cost of doing business."

What are your thoughts about that?

As you may have guessed, I am a Police Officer. I have 12 years of experience working with the courts. You are correct that you have the right to trials, appeals, and many other services that the court provides. I am speaking of the bigger picture that those outside the system may not be able to see. I will try to avoid a political battle hear, but it certainly does play a large part in the process. The court system used to work well. It no longer is able to keep up with the demands placed on it by rising crime and population. I may be somewhat biased in my views due to the courts that I work with, but I see the direct effects of too many continuances, too many cases, blah blah blah. In the 12 years of law enforcement, I have testified on the stand approximately 30 times. You would expect that number to be higher. Most of those were not trials, but suppression hearings (meaning the defendant's attorney wants to eliminate some evidence from the case). If the court tried to hold trials for every case (or even 1/4 of the cases) the system would shut down. Basically, the defense attorneys work with the Prosecutor to work out a plea bargain and get the case disposed of as quickly as possible. This process is counterproductive and will ultimately lead to failure. The criminals learn how the system works and use it to their advantage. Eventually, they learn that "the crime is worth the time", because the time (punishment) is minimal. This is where you come in. As a responsible citizen of this great nation, it is your responsiblilty to do what you can to preserve the system we have built. By abusing the rights that you are given, you contribute to the risk eventually losing those very rights that you enjoy. Think of it in the context of welfare. Welfare is a tremendous help to those who use it properly, but a great number of people on welfare abuse the system.
As far as your point about misdemeanor court...Assaults, DOMESTIC VIOLENCE, menacing by stalking, etc. etc. are all misdemeanor crimes and take up a tremendous amount of resources. Not to mention OVI (DUI). As I stated initially in my first post, you were able to get a deal worked out quickly. That is the way you should go about it in every case. Some courts are more willing to work out a plea bargain than others. Do what you feel is right. Just try to minimize the burden on the court. As far as inconveniencing the officer...he/she is probably getting paid overtime to be in court!!$$$

[PaulFiveOh]

Thanks for taking the time to post that.

I have to say that I completely see your point about overloading the system, and I agree with it.

I will keep it in mind and proceed accordingly.
And about the OT....thats funny shit. Here I am thinking this officer is like OMG I have to be there at 9am and in reality he is making 40 bucks an hour to sit there and do nothing.

Seriously, thanks for your insight buddy.

[JET50213]

No problem. Thanks for listening.

[02mingryGT]

I don't see how a person is taking "advantage" of something he has a RIGHT to. Just my opinion.

[Waffles]

Honestly, I think the problem is cops handing out tickets frivilously. I've been pulled over for some of the stupidest stuff ever. I was pulled over in Brown County because my exhaust was "too low." What's too low? Where's the statute that says how low my exhaust is allowed to be? Is it 3"? 4"? Then he also wrote me a ticket for having DRAG RADIALS! He tells me repeatedly that they aren't legal... I tell him to look at the DOT approval RIGHT ON THE TIRE. He refuses. He says, "I don't care what they say, you're not allowed to have them out here." WTF is out here? It was like I was in Tijuana or something. I was fully expecting the guy to smash my tail light with his stick and write me for that too. I was obeying all traffic laws when I was pulled over. He didn't even try to make something exciting up. He said he pulled me over because he thought my exhaust was "a little low." Eff that crap. Now tell me who's abusing the system clogging up the courts with crap that shouldn't even be there in the first place.


I just had a situation (please see http://www.stangbangerz.com/forums/showthread.php?t=44272) where I was ticketed for something I didn't do at all. The part of this I didn't explain, was that when I was pulled over my license was suspended. Now, this is partly my fault, mostly not. My license was suspended for a clerical error made BY THE COURT in another traffic case almost 6 years old. The part that was my fault was, I moved and didn't change the address on my license right away. Evidently, I changed my license after they'd sent the notification but before it was in effect.

After several phone messages and emails, I finally got to talk to the county prosecuter in the case to determine what the recommendations were. I explained that I had 3 witnesses willing to testify I never did what I was ticketed for (a burnout). I also have an affidavit from a mechanic stating the condition of the clutch, and that it would have been highly unlikely I could have even done a burnout. The prosecuter agreed to ammend my Driving While Suspended to No Ops in Possession, and merge the Improper Start and Careless Driving. I, of course, would accept the ammendment, but pleading on the other is crap. The prosecuter said, "Well, if you don't plea on the traffic violation, I'm going for the maximum on Driving While Suspended which can include 10 days in jail.

Oh, court costs. I challenge anyone in here to find out what exactly court costs pay for. I think you'll be surprised.

[PaulFiveOh]

Thats ridiculous bro. Don't even think about hiring an attorney. You have all ready gone FAR above what they would have done.

[Waffles]

No attorney. That's all they'd be able to get me anyway. When I called the prosecutor's office, the secretary said he wouldn't speak with someone they had a case against outside of the courtroom. I said, "If I had an attorney, he'd speak with my attorney. Well, I'm representing myself and I don't expect to be treated with any less courtesy." When I did get to talk to him, he said essentially the reason he finally called me back was that my persistance made him curious. WTF?

MY point is, the whole system is fucked and it starts with the offending officer. They're tax collectors handing out tax bills. I've never ever been HELPED by a cop. Ya call a cop, there's never anything they can do to help. They're always much too busy to help, but oddly always have time to pass out silly tickets.

[PaulFiveOh]

I agree with you hardcore, to an extent.

We must not generalize all peace officers this way. We also must realize that the average street cop is under 30, making less than 30k a year, and has the same problems that you and I deal with.

I will say, in my experience, the MAJORITY of police officers will not go out of their way to help out someone with the same intensity that they would issue citations.