Landspeed car project, any interest?

[RacerX]

I posted a thread last winter about this project and had several people and venders show interest. I ran out of time and had to wait untill now when I will be having more time to dedicate to it. In a nutshell it would be a Landspeed record type car, typicially raced at Bonniville, dry lakes etc. However we now have a track in Maxton N.C that is running speed trials. It's an old air strip and has a 3 mile asphalt surface. I just thought it would be fun to put a car together as Bonniville is logisticially very far to travel. Maxton is a lot closer.
What I have to bring to the table: A former Winston cup Thunderbird speedway car (has been in wind tunnel) car is complete, last used in 2003 as a show car for my ARCA team. A 2000 sq. ft. race shop located in Mason, Ohio. Shop has most items to do most any needed fabrication. Transportation: 32' enclosed trailer, Ford 4 door f-350 diesel dually tow rig.
What we would need: Good natured people that would want to have fun but know when it's time to get the work done, this kind of racing should be fun but it is a professional activity with danger involved. We need people that are Ford guys (Thats why I posted here) mechanic types, computer types, engineer types ( aero-space a plus).
Hardware: The car has a full NASCAR tube frame, Steel and kevlar NASCAR '96 Thunderbird body, very heavy duty, already has rack and pinion steering, quick change gear, mild 351W and auto trans for show car duty, we would need to heavily modify that or I am open to any combination to go FAST. The record in the stock car class is almost 250mph so we will need some where around 600/700+hp that can last and repeat. Without ballast approx. 2600pds.
I'm a stock car guy mainly but have done some drag racing as well as SCCA but this Landspeed deal seems to the last bastion of true racing, racing for racings sake, no money just some thropheys and memories, and a record would be nice along the way. This would be a grass roots budget minded deal to have fun and see how fast we can go.

More info on Renner Motorsports:http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/renner/
More info on Maxton http://www.ecta-lsr.com/

If there is enough interest this could be a great time, Thanks, Dave

[Black Horse]

Sounds like it could be fun Dave! I'd be glad to help out an olde Queen City racer - damn I miss the old place. Let us know what you need once you get the plan mapped out.

You are not going to let Hargis work on it are you? ~lol~

[Greg Seibert]

Hi RacerX,
I was curious if this speed record is for a NASCAR spec car, or are referring to another class considered 'Stock", but different from the standing Russ Wick/NASCAR Spec Taurus July 3rd/'06 record of 222.623.

[DeckerEnt]

Mason seems a little closer than where the pinks car was. My slow season is the winter so I may be able to help with this.
Keep us posted.
Keith

[pegasus]

any chance i get to make a t-bird fast im in

[stangman_5]

Hey man sounds interesting.......I will help as much as I can.

[cstreu1026]

I work in mason so I am already close by a lot. I would be good at fetching tools. :D

I may also know an engineer or two that might want to get involved. I will talk to a couple of my wife's co-workers this week.

[RacerX]

What a great start, seems like there are some like minded Ford guys out here. The car is (or was in race trim) a ARCA short track car, in the late 90s they gave us the option to run rack and pinion steering as well as a quick change rear end. The body was a "cut off" from Kranfeld-Haas, it was the #37 Little Ceasars pizza car (the purple one)driven by Jeremy Mayfield and then John Andretti. It is definatly a speedway body.
Looks like I may have been recognized by some old friends, QCS was good times, although Winchester was always my favorite. As far as Hargis, I'm sure he'll want to tell us how it's done! You can be sure it will have his Schaeffer oil in it, I think that's why I keep him around.
Ive bounced this idea off some of my race buddies and they look at me like a dog looking at a wrist watch, landspeed is a whole differant animal.
Looks like a good start.

[pegasus]

speed is speed

[Jeff88coupe]

Doesn the engine have to be N/A....or can it have a power adder?

[RacerX]

Jeff, I know some of the cars have power adders, there are litterally several classes this car could fit into, so best to get a rule book and see which makes most sence ($). My thinking was you would need a serious piece to spray it for 3 miles! Classes are based on cubes, body and fuel (I think nos is considered fuel) Maybe a small cube screemer is the way to go? I was also thinking there must be some old Busch or ASA v6's around that could make big HP with small cubes, if found one should be cheap, kinda useless now. My gut feeling is to run whatever drivetrain that we could come up with to get the car dialed in and learn the ropes, then put in a big bullit and let it rip.
All ideas are chearfully accepted, weird is good.

[Mista Bone]

most events like that or SCCA, on pressurized tanks are for fire bottles, doubt nos would be allowed for safety reasons.

Aero and gearing are your bigness hurdles. Also have to factor in the TQ/HP curve of the motor when choosing a gear and tire size.

I assume your planning on running ECTA, I have a Honda tranny geared just for it.

At 7500 rpm shift point......

Gear RPM1* RPM2 Speed @ 7500 RPM
1st 0000 7500 44.31
2nd 4385 7500 75.79
3rd 4934 7500 115.21
4th 5622 7500 153.69
5th 6171 7500 186.78

RPM1 is the rpm in the next gear after the shift, so 6171 in 5th gear = 154 mph

figuring the wall will be 160 mph......

6500 rpm in 5th = 162 mph.

Might have to short shift 4th @ 7000 rpm, getting beyond the powerband is just wasted time.

The worksheet I use was transformed into a website for me..........

http://nonsense.netfirms.com/speed.html

it's the same setup I've been using since 1983 after reading the C&D or R&T article, 200 mph street TA. Herb Adams and Gale Banks did the project.

Also, John Lingenfelter who did the C&D 40th Corvette, did like 224 mph. With a minor gearing change and a different off the shelf tranny that I suggested, he said the car would have done 236-240 mph since the motor would have been in the powerband. I cherish the fact I spent over an hour on the phone with John discussing this.

[Rob]

I will help out in the engineering/fabrication if needed.
Keep us posted :bigthumb

[02mingryGT]

I'm sure if the car has been in a wind tunnel then their must be a drag coefficient number for the body. After that i would think a simple formula involving the weight and horsepower/torque of the motor would give you an idea on what the estimated top speed would be. A Nascar engine (358 ci) motor from back then probably put down around 800-850 hp so that should be more than enough. These are just thoughts of mine not like i actually know what I'm talking about. Anyway good luck with your project.

[cstreu1026]

I like the idea of the V6 but I just how much power will it put out? I know that one of the editors in MMFF was building an open road race car to run 200+ MPH and was planning to use a turbo charged windsor.

[RacerX]

I think an old NASCAR Busch(Grand national to us old schoolers) series put out 550hp or maybe a bit higher, they were pretty serious, 3/4 of a cup motor, dry sump etc... I know they had small carbs so a big one might really wake one up. Time to start calling down south and see if any are still around maybe.

[mailman]

Talk to George Montgomery... He has built some nasty GN engines.

I am a member of the SCTA and have run at Bonneville twice on a 'liner bike, so if you need any help with paperwork or have any procedural questions, shoot me a PM.

[Quiksilver]

If weird is good, what about a turbo Ford inline 6 cylinder? Maybe with an Aussie head setup?

Sounds like an awesome project, I would love to be involved with something like this.

[RacerX]

Dan, that sounds like good advice, old Ohio George, he may have some old stuff laying around. I kind of like the idea of making "junk" go really fast. The inline 6 would make great torque, I like that idea too. I chased down a buddy from Mason that had a killer 250 6cyl. back in the day but it has been long gone. Let's keep spit-balling and when we have some good ideas we should have a informal shop meeting in a few weeks so everyone can meet.

[Da Natti]

i made 300hp 331torque on a stock 2001 v6 mustang with kit i made myself a turbo 10psi non-intercooled and drive the car every day on the street to and from work!!! i think they said the 2001 production block ,4.2 crank,ported split port heads, custom ground cam forged rods ,forged pistons could support 1000 hp with the right turbo!! but that in a perfect world!!
here is the king right now of the v6 mustang relm http://v6power.net/vb/member.php?u=7272

[seanm]

Looking at the ECTA rule book, it looks like your car fits in the circle track class, assuming the body is not a production body. Not sure if there are other classes you can run in or not. It doesn't say anything about turbos or blowers, but assume they are not allowed because there are no "B" classes listed. Nitrous oxide and nitromethane are not permitted. Gas or alcohol fuel only. You can run any combo you want in "Time Only", but there are no records to break.

The track at Maxton is 1 mile to the speed traps with just under a mile to slow down. Mostly concrete with some asphalt repairs along the track.

Maxton is a great time. The attitude is much different than any other races I've been to. Most of the other competitors are willing to jump in and help you if they can.Very friendly and laid back group.

[seanm]

Top record in circle track at Maxton is 230.202mph in C/FCT. Meaning 306-372cid on alcohol.

Classes are set by engine displacement and some vintage/flathead classes.

AA = 501cid and over
L = 15cid and smaller

[gbrown8439]

I think an old NASCAR Busch(Grand national to us old schoolers) series put out 550hp or maybe a bit higher, they were pretty serious, 3/4 of a cup motor, dry sump etc... I know they had small carbs so a big one might really wake one up. Time to start calling down south and see if any are still around maybe.


I just happen to have a 4.5L ford V6 Bush motor that made 385 RWHP with a "mild" cam relativly low compression and a short stroke crank. The gentelman I bought a lot of the parts from runs them in the Pikes Peak hill climb and his motors put out over 700 hp at the crank!
I am going with a different motor next year and would like to sell all of my V6 stuff if you are interested.

Let me know if you want more info
Greg

[Mista Bone]

Damn, never knew we had the salt freak land speed lurkers here.

Speed addicts...........

[RacerX]

Sean, thanks for the info, that 230mph is pretty strong, I think that was the Jessel Dodge Charger? I think it was a Busch car. A record would be great in any class but as Maxton gets more popular that may be hard to do, just to compete and learn would be a good goal to start.
Greg, your V6 sounds interesting, I know those engines made some good power, what do you have yours in now?

[boosted 98]

im going to maxton but im taking my bike,i just changed a few things on the motor and hope to have around 550 hp, i bumped the boost up to 42psi!! im going for the fastest street bike at maxton, i think it around 240 mph. maby we can go together when you go.

[seanm]

Here are the records for some of the car classes. Scroll down to the Fuel and Gas circle track classes to see who and what you're up against record wise: http://www.ecta-lsr.com/RecordsCars2.php

[seanm]

The April meet is the best to go to as a spectator, IMO, but not as nice as a racer. Very crowded and long waits to make a pass.

[gbrown8439]

Greg, your V6 sounds interesting, I know those engines made some good power, what do you have yours in now?

It's on a shelf in pieces at Modular Depot. Come take a look any time you want.

Greg

[seanm]

The 4.5L would put you in D/FCT (alcohol) or D/GCT (gas). Records are 146.341mph and 151.008 respectively.

AFAIK, you can run in classes above your engine size designation also. So AA,A,B, and C would be open to you also.

Sounds like a cool project, and a record is still attainable.

[RacerX]

I think 150's is a very ubtainable goal with that car. Say we go with 4.5 V6, what about a transmission? Since you only have 1 mile to get up to speed that would be very important. I think a small clutch standard but maybe an auto would work? There's a great shop in Milford, Jerry's that does hi-po work.
Starting to sound like it could work.

[Mista Bone]

Automatic creates more heat and drag.......

Not saying it can't be done, Andy Granatelli went 220 mph with a TH400 in the 3rd gen Camaro years ago.

[gbrown8439]

I think 150's is a very ubtainable goal with that car. Say we go with 4.5 V6, what about a transmission? Since you only have 1 mile to get up to speed that would be very important. I think a small clutch standard but maybe an auto would work? There's a great shop in Milford, Jerry's that does hi-po work.
Starting to sound like it could work.


You can get used Nascar take out 4 speeds pretty cheap and they have hundreds of gear choices. I would use as tall of a first gear as possible, make a big jump to second then make 2 thru 4 close.

Greg

[RacerX]

I'm dusting this thread off as there have been some major changes. Because of some other projects and goals I had to put Maxton on hold ( I went AMA motorcycle racing and in 4 races got 2 seconds and 2 thirds, still can't believe that. We did a SCCA 24hr endurance race and finished 10th. And we converted the T-Bird over to a street car, all legit and legal)

Maxton lost the track and ECTA is moving the races to the former DHL airport in Wilmington! So now we HAVE to do this. My goal for my racing efforts this year is this project. So this is 100% on.

The needs are basically the same, although now the car MAY fit into a street class now that it actually is a "street" car? Also since the track will be a differant length I assume there will be a clean slate for records!

We need a strong drivetrain. I have been in touch with Paul at Pauls Automotive but just an informal phone conversation. If anyone owns or is involved with an engine builder that would be good. We would be glad to swap advertising for help. Seems to me a landspeed record would be a nice feather in the cap of a engine shop. The car has a 351W in it now so it could be used to make a 427 or???? And I have a Braswell/Rousch NASCAR 850HP carb that is new we could use.

Here is a pic of the car at a the Milford cruize in and a link to a bunch of pics. If all goes well I plan to make the T-Bird the main emphasis but I have another couple of cars we may run and some bikes, so if you want to just be a part of the crew I'm sure we can use the help.

The main thing is to have fun but of course this will be a professional endeavor and our goals are to do a good job for sponcers (if we get any) and go as fast as we can. The icing on the cake would be a record, and I REALLY want icing!

Thanks for any help and ideas. Please feel free to call me at my office at five one three 398. 1532. Tu-Fri 10am to 5pm. Here's a link to what the car looks like in it's current street trim: http://s719.photobucket.com/albums/ww197/DBR0051/#!cpZZ3QQtppZZ12

Thanks again, Dave

http://i719.photobucket.com/albums/ww197/DBR0051/DSCN3546.jpg

http://i719.photobucket.com/albums/ww197/DBR0051/DSCN3547.jpg

[pegasus]

about damm time

[05yellowgt]

Could we just drop my motor and trans in that car and go? lol

[Black Horse]

Give Brian or Tony a call at BES Racing Engines. If anyone can build you what you need it would be them!

[RacerX]

I just wanted to throw out an update. We are 100% dedicated to doing this project. Plans are to use the T-Bird for the main car and I may run a couple other cars (Jaguar XJS w/383 cid and out Toyota SCCA car,) and bikes.

I'm gathering info at this point and should have a game plan soon. I have made some connections on what needs to be done to the aero aspect and so far we look good.

I have some feelers out about a drivetrain. If all else fails we can build up the 351W thats in the car now. But we really need some good power and a manual trans. If anyone has connections to any good engine builders please feel free to put the word out. Seems to me a landspeed record would be a nice bit of advertising and a feather in the cap to a shop. I feel confident we have the car and support equipment to get it done.

If you would want to be involved please just send me a PM. This will be a serious but for fun project, no big $ payouts, no big sponcers just some good guys that want to go real fast. The #1 goal is a record. I know this is a lot to shoot for in a first attept but I know it can be done!



Thanks, Dave